Jump to content

Hate the new Evernote


Recommended Posts

  • Level 5*
2 hours ago, ehrt74 said:

I really don't know Joplin but does it run an OCR over images to make then searchable or offer real-time search indexed search results of 1000s of notes? How about adding notes to pdfs or images? Does it have a grammar allowing you to issue specific queries over http? 

You're asking mostly about EN Premium features. For someone who requires those features, Joplin is not an option. But it could be an option for someone for whom EN Basic suffices, and it eliminates some restrictions such as device limits and has some additional features. And it's open source and free to use.

What's really interesting is how note apps has exploded in recent years. Lots of options, all a bit unique in feature-set. The competition should drive some great innovation in the note taking space.

  • Like 2
Link to post
  • Replies 580
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Thanks for nothing. In one swoop you have completely destroyed my workflow and 7 years worth of an information database. Many moons ago with the idiotic limitation of 250 notebooks I was forced t

You destroyed Evernote with this new version. Why don't you think twice about ***** people's lives? Everything that has changed has changed for the worse. I have been using it since 2012. The worst ve

Why why why would you change a perfectly good user interface and totally complicate it? This new version does not make it easier to create a note or to change the notebook for the note. It makes it ha

Posted Images

Recently I've read Ian's new blog post - State of the Product. What he said is promising... that Evernote devs will continue to improve the app debacle continuously. But I already had months of frustration with this half-arsed, far from complete, and unstable program.

Am I missing something? I don't have much knowledge on product quality management, but you can't put raw dough on a bakery shelf. You have to bake in the oven for adequate time. Until then, no one should experience the taste of awful raw flour, especially when the bakery put that as a "cooked" bread. I'm just a customer walking into the bakery expecting delicious, golden brown bread. I don't give a flip about whether this is a beta, or in development, blablabla. I want it COMPLETE. Especially when I'm paying this $50 or so for years. At this stage, I'm feeling like Evernote is ripping me off. Legacy version? I'm using it, but who in the right mind recommend older version, while focusing all of the attention to the new version and giving zero concern to the legacy ver? It doesn't make any sense.

If I was to release the new product with different "code base" or "some hard-to-understand techie words", I would simply put that in a beta stage, and wait until something is considered as done. No one asked for fancy reactive UI or newer fonts, something like that. I just want to store my notes, as the way I've done before. Change is inevitable and I agree with that, but it has to be done with minimal interference with user experience. Why do I have to search for user forums? Why do I have to read the "state of the product" that is in a dedicated blog page which is not directly accessible from the front page of the product? Why do I have to understand Evernote staffs when they do things that will never be understood? No preferences menu on public release of word processing software, that needs some annual purchase to sync over 2 devices? Do you really think this is finished?

I'm not saying there will be no hope for this app. I'm still have trust to Evernote devs who are writing codes around the clock. Eventually all will be good. What I'm saying is that problems are just too overwhelming that the software is almost unusable, so it would have been better just not releasing new version, rather than continuously giving suffering on the entire userbase. So I decided to leave Evernote for some months, sticking to the legacy version.

Never, ever release a product that is not complete. I still suffer from inability to disable spellcheck red lines for several months. Darn it.

  • Like 5
Link to post
  • Kade changed the title to To Evernote: Never Release a Product That Is Not Complete.

I am deeply concerned by the radio silence.

The same company that routinely sends me useless spam about “new ways to get organized” is completely silent for three months after a disastrous product rollout? No expectation setting on what was and wasn’t supported in the “all new” version? No apologies for lost data and horrible user experience?

The “Contact Evernote” page has only snail mail addresses on it? No way to provide feedback outside of these forums? 

I look back to Apple’s botched release of Apple Maps as an example of how great leaders respond to problem releases. Immediate and candid acknowledgement of problems. Taking responsibility from the top. Offering short term mitigation’s and work-around while taking a long-term approach to bettering the product. Prioritizing customer communication, experience, and trust.

These attributes have been sadly lacking during the Evernote v10 fiasco and, more than the release failures themselves, force me to doubt the future of the platform. Disappointing.

Evernote: You may have needed a new codebase but right now what you need most is a new CEO.

- Tom

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
On 12/8/2020 at 4:02 PM, luvmyc6 said:

Oh yes, I remember those feeble and pathetic attempts by MS! To this day, some people at my company (esp the MS defenders) never understood that LN was more than just a "Mail" application.

LOL but for us the end users it was primarily a Mail application. And it SUCKED. Big time. The “Interface Hall of Shame” website had an entire separate section dedicated to Lotus Notes - while most other software got a paragraph.  Well deserved, too.

Switching from LN to Outlook was a breath of fresh air. While Outlook may not have the advance database features of LN, as an email / calendar/ task manager it’s indefinitely better.

  • Like 4
Link to post

Modern software development: forego testers, forego releases, just hire web developers to write agile constantly-updated pages, even for desktop apps. Put everything on a subscription plan, don't let people buy perpetual licenses. Everything is slower, everything is always in flux, all clients are on the latest version the web developer just pushed. It's not just Evernote, all nu-programmers are like this. Anytime you run a newly-updated app and it became much slower and less native-looking, this is what happened.

The main appeal of Evernote to me was the great desktop app. Now it's another slow webapp in a desktop shell, and it lost its primary advantage over other Electron apps like StandardNotes and Joplin. (speaking for myself as a user only syncing text notes)

  • Like 3
Link to post
  • Level 5*
On 12/16/2020 at 4:50 AM, eric99 said:

If you dislike the V10 GUI, then Joplin is no alternative because it has almost exactly the same layout and it has no wysiwyg editor like EN.

 

On 12/16/2020 at 9:55 AM, tavor said:

Joplin does allow you to use your preferred editor, so you can use something like Typora, which has features that far exceed Evernote's editor (outlines, formulas, diagrams). I imagine there's no issue using a WYSIWYG editor if you prefer that over a markdown editor.

@eric99 - I need to correct myself. Typora does have a WYSIWYG view. It's a fantastic editor that lets you do things that EN editor cannot. Some implementation of an outline mode has been requested for years by EN userbase, and we still don't have it. Typora has it and you can use that as your preferred editor in Joplin.

Also, Joplin editor has WYSIWYG in beta. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
10 hours ago, Wanderling Reborn said:

LOL but for us the end users it was primarily a Mail application. And it SUCKED. Big time. The “Interface Hall of Shame” website had an entire separate section dedicated to Lotus Notes - while most other software got a paragraph.  Well deserved, too.

Switching from LN to Outlook was a breath of fresh air. While Outlook may not have the advance database features of LN, as an email / calendar/ task manager it’s indefinitely better.

Yes for many it was just a not so great mail app. But at my company, we also had well over 90,000 unique custom LN apps, developed internally, ranging from a basic discussion forum, to robust document management and approval workflow repositories, to extremely complex business process solutions (which accounted for about 10% of the total).

Link to post

I actually like the new version and its look.

But I also feel the pain of Power users that used Evernote to the max and now their workflow is damaged / gone / changed.

The good thing is that the updated are coming fast.

Also, Evernote team should be more open about roadmap. Color tagging was used by me a little bit, but it seems that some folks used it in a big way.

 

I had similar experience few years ago when workplace Outlook database was migrated and i lost all my tags. 

  • Like 1
Link to post

Sorry but I can't contain my disappointment about the new Evernote. The crappiness of this "revolutionary" update goes far beyond any worst expectation! :( While I'm slowly getting used to the Mac and Windows client, some days ago I updated my Android app, and....got no words to say other than "slow". Slow. SLOW. S-L-O-W!!!!! My phone is not a blazing-fast-brand-new-one, but it's a fair decent Honor 10, which can run almost anything smoothly and nicely. But using the new Evernote looks like playing a modern Tiple-A game on a Pentium 4 nineties PC! About 10 seconds only to have the app open and ready to add a note, unresponsive commands, buggy search (as always), missing pictures and so on.

That's a total shame, seems like you wished to add more disasters to this damn 2020! 🤦‍♂️

  • Like 1
Link to post

After the big update, lots of my notes are in a weird container where I can't access the text. I have to individually process them to get my text back.

But JPGs are trashed! Why can I no longer copy them from evernote? This has been an issue all month.

Worst Evernote ever. I want my time and money back for trusting this thing that has locked up all my data.

Why would you DO that?

Link to post
On 12/17/2020 at 11:04 AM, Tsnellgrove42 said:

I am deeply concerned by the radio silence.

The same company that routinely sends me useless spam about “new ways to get organized” is completely silent for three months after a disastrous product rollout? No expectation setting on what was and wasn’t supported in the “all new” version? No apologies for lost data and horrible user experience?

Huh?  Tom, they haven't been silent for 3 months.  They have pushed out numerous updates since the initial v10 release, almost on a bi-weekly basis.  That's not silence.  And the fact that they have been able to push out those updates so quickly is proof that the direction the current CEO has taken them on is working.  He has been very open and honest since beginning this rebuild process. Did you read the recent blog post

  • Like 2
Link to post
1 hour ago, laserfocus said:

After the big update, lots of my notes are in a weird container where I can't access the text. I have to individually process them to get my text back.

But JPGs are trashed! Why can I no longer copy them from evernote? This has been an issue all month.

Worst Evernote ever. I want my time and money back for trusting this thing that has locked up all my data.

Why would you DO that?

You can reinstall the Legacy version and it will have all the features you were used to. Install an older version of Evernote

Link to post

Hi all, 

is there a quick find function in the new version? It was cmd-j before I think. I am using alt-ctrl-f but the search is very slow. I am wondering if there is another way of quickly finding notes. Also, has anyone been able to get multiple tabs working somehow ?

 

Thanks

Link to post
1 hour ago, bo12 said:

Hi all, 

is there a quick find function in the new version? It was cmd-j before I think. I am using alt-ctrl-f but the search is very slow. I am wondering if there is another way of quickly finding notes. Also, has anyone been able to get multiple tabs working somehow ?

 

Thanks

On my 4 year old laptop (16 GB ram, I7, ssd), alt-ctrl-f is very fast and works perfectly.  What PC are you using?

Edit: have you updated to the latest EN v 10.5.7 already ?

Link to post
2 hours ago, Brendan Murphy said:

Huh?  Tom, they haven't been silent for 3 months.  They have pushed out numerous updates since the initial v10 release, almost on a bi-weekly basis.  That's not silence.  And the fact that they have been able to push out those updates so quickly is proof that the direction the current CEO has taken them on is working.

If they are able to make improvements so quickly then why were they in such a rush to release it? It arrived with a bunch of problems that should have been caught in QA. Not to mention it was missing features that people rely on for their workflow.

To be fair, I highly doubt the developers were in a rush to release something so unfinished. That was almost certainly a management decision driven by a CEO who didn't think tag support was a big deal.

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
  • Level 5*
55 minutes ago, Metrodon said:

Assuming what they say is true (and why would they bother not telling the truth?) tags are used by a very very small subset of users.

So, tags aren't a big deal.

Though it might be good to know if it is percentage of active users, percentage of premium users, etc.

Link to post
59 minutes ago, Metrodon said:

Assuming what they say is true (and why would they bother not telling the truth?) tags are used by a very very small subset of users.

So, tags aren't a big deal.

Even assuming the first part is true, it does not necessarily follow that the second part is true.

  • Like 2
Link to post
  • Level 5*
1 hour ago, NorcalScott said:

The way I see it, there are some huge warning signs here:

- EN seems to be saying that power users are not that big of a concern to them, and I am a power user (to an extent)
- They seem to be saying that key features I use are not that important because not many others use them
- They seem hell bent on moving to a cloud dependent, centralized data model rather than the current environment where databases stay on the computer and are synced to the cloud for use on other devices.  We are trading local control to an environment where the totality of my data is out of my control.

I don't think Evernote can survive without power users, who are probably the only people willing to pay for a notetaking app, so we will see where this leads to.

I am testing out Joplin and it is actually pretty solid.  It certainly lacks some features that EN has, but it also includes some nice features EN doesn't have, like encryption, and it is blazingly fast to use and perform searches on.  If I am able to move my workflows over to Joplin and be able to use my Windows machine, my iPad and my Android phone successfully for a few months, I will make the switch permanent.

The bolded part cannot be emphasized enough for those who prioritize privacy and security. To be fair to EN, they are not alone in this approach. Many note apps are not offering either:

(1) local-only notes that are not uploaded to app provider's cloud, OR

(2) E2E encryption that does not leave the encryption key in the app provider's hands

And with a full cloud model, good luck accessing your notes if there is an outage (at EN, at their cloud provider, or at your broadband provider) or if you lose power at your home and cannot power your broadband equipment.

I hope they reconsider, as they are best in class in the note space, but after listening to the CEO in a few different conversations, it's clear to me they are full steam ahead (though if enough users opt out, well, the business doesn't exist without the users, so it remains to be seen what proportion of users draws the line vs goes along).

I've been looking at alternatives, and like @NorcalScottI'm testing out Joplin. 

  • Like 5
Link to post
7 hours ago, eric99 said:

On my 4 year old laptop (16 GB ram, I7, ssd), alt-ctrl-f is very fast and works perfectly.  What PC are you using?

Edit: have you updated to the latest EN v 10.5.7 already ?

When I type in the search box suggestions are somewhat sluggish. I am used to getting instant results. I think it has to do with the fact that the new app is actually a web app in a wrapper and there is an intentional delay between every key strokes. It makes sense for a web app since every key stroke is a cost to Evernote backend but offline it makes no sense at all.  I have a fully spec'ed macbook pro 2019. Compute is not a problem

I have also created the following Alfred 4 workflow (powerpack upgrade required) with this apple script to open the search box automatically when called

tell application "Evernote"

    -- Bring app to the front, starting it if necessary

    activate

end tell

-- Simulate CMD+CTRL+F
--tell application "System Events" to keystroke "f" using {control down, down option}

tell application "System Events"
	delay 0.3
    keystroke "f" using {option down, command down} 
    keystroke "a" using {command down} 
end tell

Its a shame tabs are now gone

  • Like 1
Link to post

This new update is, in my humble opinion, an unmitigated disaster.  I have never had as many duplicated notes and note conflicts as I have had in the past few days.  You can say that EN is automatically syncing but that is simply not the case.  I've now made it SOP to close and reopen the app from time to time and I still get conflicts and duplicates, and that is without crossing over between macOS and iOS devices. 

Previously I just made sure to manually sync EN after adding a lot of data and also to do that just before closing the app.  Now that corporate has removed the sync button (Why? Do share your logic.) there appears no way to force a sync.

I am looking for alternatives. A file folder filled with Pages or Word documents would be less stressful at this point. I don't subscribe to software so that the developers can make changes to a product that already worked, just so I can spend several hours searching for solutions to problems their "improvements" have created.

Yes, I realize that people are resistant to change.  This is not the case here, the product is broken.  I am actively considering cancelling my subscription.

 

  • Like 5
Link to post
6 hours ago, tavor said:

The bolded part cannot be emphasized enough for those who prioritize privacy and security. To be fair to EN, they are not alone in this approach. Many note apps are not offering either:

(1) local-only notes that are not uploaded to app provider's cloud, OR

(2) E2E encryption that does not leave the encryption key in the app provider's hands

And with a full cloud model, good luck accessing your notes if there is an outage (at EN, at their cloud provider, or at your broadband provider) or if you lose power at your home and cannot power your broadband equipment.

I hope they reconsider, as they are best in class in the note space, but after listening to the CEO in a few different conversations, it's clear to me they are full steam ahead (though if enough users opt out, well, the business doesn't exist without the users, so it remains to be seen what proportion of users draws the line vs goes along).

I've been looking at alternatives, and like @NorcalScottI'm testing out Joplin. 

Now we can still have an offline access because Evernote allows, but cloud default, sending to cloud first, no local. But for some services like Notion, they totally depend on internet connection.

After version 10, it seems Evernote is more dependent on cloud because of cancelling local notes and the new search. I found that I can't search on iOS while I can search (without immediate so called smart search suggestions showing you related tags, notebooks ...) on macOS. Even when there is perfect internet connection I need to wait for the server to update my database. I contact the support and they admit the search is for online only, and they are considering releasing the offline one.

My database used to be corrupted before as my deleted note information was shown on search results, and I had to contact support to fix the issue. Now the problem is almost solved as I still find those notes when I search "checkboxes". Cloud dependent services can make a problem more complicated because you don't know whether the root on my end or the server end, and I am concerned about my data cannot be totally deleted in this case.

I prefer local default note taking apps like Joplin, Apple Notes and Bear. I am using Bear now and the search result is instantaneous. Bear doesn't have their own cloud, although the app only allows the iCloud option depending on our own Apple account to sync.

Google had an outage a few days ago and Evernote is using the Google resources. Dunno if there was an interruption on EN during that period.

Link to post
7 hours ago, Metrodon said:

Assuming what they say is true (and why would they bother not telling the truth?) tags are used by a very very small subset of users.

So, tags aren't a big deal.

Never attribute to malice that which may be explained by incompetency. And shipping v10 before it was ready and then leading people to believe it was ready is not a sign of competence at the top. Ian Small may indeed be the CEO the company needs to survive. I am certain however that I can't take his or the company's promises on faith.

As to tags, I use them as just one example of missing functionality. Tags may not be a big deal for me or you. They've been around forever though and I have yet to hear anyone make a case that they shouldn't have been put in the product in first place. Indeed, if the new received wisdom is that very few people use tags you have to wonder why they were put in there in the first place. Notebooks? Nested tags? Color-coded tags? Is it possible that these were put into the product in response to customer demand? Meta data for database records? Crazy talk, I know. And don't get me started on the font decisions.

The problem with serving multiple platforms with a common code base is that there is always an incentive to pick the lowest common denominator in your product design. In v10 I see that LCD approach and similarities to the web client. I have used web access on occasion when I was using Linux. I'd say it was adequate for light use, but not something I'd choose over a desktop app. Similarly v10 is a LCD solution that many may find adequate. It's certainly not something that's going to keep this customer paying for a Premium account, however.

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
13 hours ago, NorcalScott said:

The comment of the CEO about few users using tags is what concerned me the most, to be honest.  Tags are a VERY big part of my workflow, and the main reason I chose Evernote in the beginning.  Maybe others don't use them, but my job requires storing of information that needs to be categorized by several different criteria, and tags are very useful for this.

The way I see it, there are some huge warning signs here:

- EN seems to be saying that power users are not that big of a concern to them, and I am a power user (to an extent)
- They seem to be saying that key features I use are not that important because not many others use them
- They seem hell bent on moving to a cloud dependent, centralized data model rather than the current environment where databases stay on the computer and are synced to the cloud for use on other devices.  We are trading local control to an environment where the totality of my data is out of my control.

I don't think Evernote can survive without power users, who are probably the only people willing to pay for a notetaking app, so we will see where this leads to.

I am testing out Joplin and it is actually pretty solid.  It certainly lacks some features that EN has, but it also includes some nice features EN doesn't have, like encryption, and it is blazingly fast to use and perform searches on.  If I am able to move my workflows over to Joplin and be able to use my Windows machine, my iPad and my Android phone successfully for a few months, I will make the switch permanent.

 

Speaking of which, I see Evernote's page entitled "Our GDPR Commitment" is empty (https://evernote.com/privacy/gdpr)

I struggle to see how anyone using Evernote to deal with personal data can possibly comply with the GDPR under this new "cloud-only" approach.

Link to post
5 hours ago, Alvin C said:

I prefer local default note taking apps like Joplin, Apple Notes and Bear. I am using Bear now and the search result is instantaneous. Bear doesn't have their own cloud, although the app only allows the iCloud option depending on our own Apple account to sync.

while apple only, I would add devonthink to the mix. have migrated out of this EN mess a few weeks back and am very happy with the decision...

  • Like 1
Link to post
On 12/17/2020 at 9:21 PM, tavor said:

 

@eric99 - I need to correct myself. Typora does have a WYSIWYG view. It's a fantastic editor that lets you do things that EN editor cannot. Some implementation of an outline mode has been requested for years by EN userbase, and we still don't have it. Typora has it and you an use that as your preferred editor in Joplin.

Also, Joplin editor has WYSIWYG in beta. 

The problem with Joplin, for me, is that it's all but useless on iOS. And if I only used my data on the desktop, I'd just put it in Onedrive / Google drive as regular documents. Both these services have PDF and image OCR, something Joplin doesn't do. Onenote is indispensable for work if your organization is using Outlook and Office, the level of integration is fantastic (MS does a very poor job promoting its best features, or how they can be used to simplify a Project Manager's life). Evernote is a great alternative otherwise. With Joplin, I am not sure what it would do for me that I can't get with text notes, Word and Excel files stored in Onedrive and indexed. 

Link to post
3 minutes ago, Wanderling Reborn said:

The problem with Joplin, for me, is that it's all but useless on iOS. And if I only used my data on the desktop, I'd just put it in Onedrive / Google drive as regular documents. Both these services have PDF and image OCR, something Joplin doesn't do. Onenote is indispensable for work if your organization is using Outlook and Office, the level of integration is fantastic (MS does a very poor job promoting its best features, or how they can be used to simplify a Project Manager's life). Evernote is a great alternative otherwise. With Joplin, I am not sure what it would do for me that I can't get with text notes, Word and Excel files stored in Onedrive and indexed. 

I have similar struggle, I am tied into Microsoft ecosystem of Teams/Office. I use Joplin purely for notetaking related to calls, meetings and daily activity, while the rest (emails, contacts, tasks) are in separate workflows.

Still, IMHO using a OneDrive folder structure with documents is easier than embedding them in legacy Evernote notes - there is no real benefit of putting your files INTO the notes.

Link to post
  • Level 5*
2 hours ago, SyberBot said:

It is too bad Evernote doesn't support local notebooks any longer.

Joplin looks like a nice replacement for evernote, and they have local notebooks!

https://joplinapp.org/

 

No, Joplin does not have local notebooks in the sense in which Evernote Legacy does. The difference between local notebooks and offline notes seems to be a common point of confusion on this forum. Maybe I can clear things up.

Evernote's Local Notebooks refers to local-only notebooks. Many of you may not be familiar with this feature as EN has downplayed it for years, even hiding it a bit. So you either knew about it from back when they did talk about it or you found it from hunting through the menus. None of the notes in these local notebooks gets synced to the cloud, so they also cannot be synced to your other devices. These notes reside *only* on the device on which they were created (in EN, this means a desktop/laptop as only the Windows and Mac apps allow you to create local notebooks). The obvious user benefit is privacy - since these notes are never synced to the cloud, you don't have to worry about the app provider, cloud storage provider or cloud hackers ever accessing these notes. The obvious drawback is they aren't synced, so you don't have access to the notes from other devices. They also cannot be used for enhanced search and sharing functions since EN cannot access these notes. Local notebooks are gone in v10 and this feature is not coming back. Those of us for whom local notebooks is an important feature for some portion of our notes (i.e., the notes we don't want to risk others accessing) have either already left or are using EN Legacy and will have to figure out what to do when Legacy is no longer supported.

Separately, you have offline notes. This refers to local storage of synced notes, as opposed to cloud-only storage. With offline notes, if your broadband provider, or EN or the cloud storage provider experience an outage, you still have access to your notes. Another benefit of offline notes is that there is zero lag. When your searches have to be sent to the cloud, executed on your cloud stored notes, then results sent back to you, you might experience some lag.

Getting back to Joplin, it does NOT have local notebooks. What it does have is offline storage, i.e., all your notes are stored on your synced devices, in addition to the cloud.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post

First of all, I would like to thank your for a great app. But sometimes it becomes worse. )

In the new version, several features have changed.

1. Moving notes between notebooks became harder.
I like to move notes between notebooks.
I used to be able to select hundred notes in a group and drag them from one notebook to another. What about current state?
– I will not be allowed to select more than 50 notes
– moving is extremely slow
– notes change the date (!!!) — to my mind, it is unacceptable, notepad link is a meta attribute, the text of the note itself does not change, so no reason to change the date
– last moved notes appear in labels in a menu

2. Backuping became much more difficult.
In a previous version I made a backup copy like this: I selected all the notes (I have about 500 of them) and clicked "Export". So for 1 minute I got backup.
Now i am not allowed to select more than 50 notes.
I can export only notebook, so I have to backup 20 times (20 notebooks) instead of 1 time.

3. Moving via link to an outer site demands 2 clicks.
I don't know why I have to click twice to jump by my link. The first click shows a link, the second moves me. It's not an usual web behaviour and it's too slow.
 

Could you improve back this functionality?

Edited by Alexander Sadovskiy
Remebered yet one feature
  • Like 1
Link to post
2 hours ago, Piotas said:

I have similar struggle, I am tied into Microsoft ecosystem of Teams/Office. I use Joplin purely for notetaking related to calls, meetings and daily activity, while the rest (emails, contacts, tasks) are in separate workflows.

Still, IMHO using a OneDrive folder structure with documents is easier than embedding them in legacy Evernote notes - there is no real benefit of putting your files INTO the notes.

Why don't you use Onenote for meeting notes and daily activity? It's so well integrated with Office, Outlook and Teams, you're really missing out if you're not using it for that. (Onenote 2016, as Windows 10 app is too limited).

E.g. when I have a meeting, with just one click I create a Onenote page with all meeting data - including a sign in list where I can check off attendee names, agenda, and a Notes section. All of that is automatically copied from Outlook. I then brainstorm the meeting ahead of time under Notes, add links to relevant documents and emails (or just copy them  as attachments), and add checkmarks with all questions that need to be covered, checking them off as we go. Any notes to myself that I don't want to share with meeting go into a collapsed outline on the right side of note, outside the main body. If any actionable items come up during meeting, I create Outlook tasks right from my notes, without leaving Onenote. When I am done, I export meeting notes to PDF,  and distribute them to meeting participants with a few clicks in Outlook (right click on meeting in calendar, "Reply all", click on attachment icon, it will automatically suggest the last document created in any Office app). The "tags" (which are not really tags) is also a very powerful feature, when used right. It's a major time saver. 

  • Like 2
Link to post

Honestly, I'll be moving away from this poorly released and developed app. I continuously get messages indicating 'Oops, something went wrong' and upon selecting ok, I'm pushed back to the top level of whatever stack I was in. Sigh.

To add insult to injury, I'm being prompted with an indication that the using the browser based version on the same machine I have set as one of my 2 instances, is umm... another instance? What is this absurdity? If I can't rely on the stand alone application, I have to use something but if I'm stuck with 2 prunes a month and your app sucks, how should I proceed?

I'm not a power user by any means and I'm not really interested in following the discussion of how this is better because quite frankly, it's not. I have plenty of notes that I've accumulated over the last several years and they were up till now, nicely organized within the desktop version which is now just a polished *****. No more.

If I were shelling out actual cash for the app, I'd be cancelling but at least at this point I'm just stuck with taking the time to migrate to literally ANYTHING ELSE. Luckily, I'm stuck at home just like everyone else so I've got that going for me.

Link to post

I've used Evernote for several years, built a very robust system of tracking my life, memories and ideas. The new version is HORRIBLE! Nothing works the same, its so slow I often forget what I was trying to do, and it's no longer my prefered place for capturing notes. My renewal is up in a about a month and I'm currently lookin for other options to migrate to. If I have to relearn, I might as well relearn something new.

The work flows are off, the tagging and movement of notes is slow, doing anything with multiple notes is very slow and I don't like the views. Opening more than one note at a time is difficult. 

Can we roll back to a local version that syncs?

Link to post
2 hours ago, Wanderling Reborn said:

E.g. when I have a meeting, with just one click I create a Onenote page with all meeting data - including a sign in list where I can check off attendee names, agenda, and a Notes section. All of that is automatically copied from Outlook. I then brainstorm the meeting ahead of time under Notes, add links to relevant documents and emails (or just copy them  as attachments), and add checkmarks with all questions that need to be covered, checking them off as we go. Any notes to myself that I don't want to share with meeting go into a collapsed outline on the right side of note, outside the main body. If any actionable items come up during meeting, I create Outlook tasks right from my notes, without leaving Onenote. When I am done, I export meeting notes to PDF,  and distribute them to meeting participants with a few clicks in Outlook (right click on meeting in calendar, "Reply all", click on attachment icon, it will automatically suggest the last document created in any Office app). The "tags" (which are not really tags) is also a very powerful feature, when used right. It's a major time saver. 

I used OneNote in the past, in my previous job for tasks you described due to integration with Outlook tied to calendar and contacts. I used OneNote 2013 (2012-2015). It was OK for limited number of notes for a few projects, but isn't suitable for note-everything-of-importance approach due to limited tree structure. OneNote is more "electronic" paper than text-note-taking app and it has some limitation of page-centric approach.

In my current job I am forced to use my employer's managed PC or Vmware virtual machine (as I am BYOD user), I no longer can benefit from OneNote-connects-to-all, I actually use Teams to sync data between host and VM (because admins blocked all "normal" methods of file transwer and firewall VM connects via VPN blocks most traffic). As result, currently  I use Evernote and Joplin in combo - Evernote mostly for junk website grab and email forwarding, joplin for note taking). I still use Evernote because I don't want to clutter Joplin with low-importance web-dumps, only important text notes. I even use Evernote weblinks with Joplin, Google Contacts and my CRM to link to text content. This is result of limitation of Joplin android app (you have to replicate all notes on your device, you cannot do it partially); also currently there is no file handler to mimic Evernote web links, so in cannot automate Joplin usage cross-app.

Link to post

I do not know what they were thinking. One thing is for sure, the new EN sucks a lot. For once, after 2 weeks of getting sick at this garbage update I decided to cancel my premium. These people will NOT have my money or support anymore! It's the most I can do. Why support a company that has it's head so far up their..

  • Like 3
Link to post

With the level of upset and frustration that dedicated EN users are expressing, wouldn't you think management would at least come out with a "we hear you and we are going to make changes" message? Other than the blog the CEO recently posted (which addressed almost none of the concerns expressed on this forum), there is silence. This is highly disconcerting. 

EN is crucial to my work. I don't want to leave. But the longer the silence goes on, the more troubled I become. And unlike some of the posters here, I don't have the technical expertise to do a thorough job of evaluating options. I'm fairly sure there are a significant number of people in the same boat as I am. 

Am I wrong in thinking that the tools and functionalities that have been taken away aren't coming back?
That management is saying: "here the new EN and this is the way it is?"
Or is EN a company that has lost its way and is losing talented employees, and therefore is a sinking ship?

Sorry if this isn't worded well. The frustration level here is high. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
  • Level 5*
48 minutes ago, MB11 said:

With the level of upset and frustration that dedicated EN users are expressing, wouldn't you think management would at least come out with a "we hear you and we are going to make changes" message? Other than the blog the CEO recently posted (which addressed almost none of the concerns expressed on this forum), there is silence. This is highly disconcerting. 

EN is crucial to my work. I don't want to leave. But the longer the silence goes on, the more troubled I become. And unlike some of the posters here, I don't have the technical expertise to do a thorough job of evaluating options. I'm fairly sure there are a significant number of people in the same boat as I am. 

Am I wrong in thinking that the tools and functionalities that have been taken away aren't coming back?
That management is saying: "here the new EN and this is the way it is?"
Or is EN a company that has lost its way and is losing talented employees, and therefore is a sinking ship?

Sorry if this isn't worded well. The frustration level here is high. 

There is a recent video that was posted that addresses the issues of V10.  A bit of 20-20 hindsight  while downplaying the impact on heavy users.  Not disingenuous but in the neighborhood.  

  • Like 2
Link to post

I haven't read all these replies, but here I go...

I hate the new app. Just downloaded the Legacy app and am using that now. Both can exist next to eachother, so that is good. The new version is just the web version in a shell, right? It's almost identical to the web version, the one that only runs properly in Chrome, not in Firefox.

Now with this new version - WHY IS THERE NO LINUX APP YET??????

I mean, if you go this way, then that should be peanuts not?

I hate the ugglyness and sluggyness. When I create a new note, I see like 5 different windows being created, and then it's a miracle if I can type a new title and text, because often I need to restart to do that. The only improvement is search, because that didn't work at all in the old app on my Mac. If I needed search, I did that on the phone, added a space in the text so it moved up, then could proceed on the laptop.

Lists on the phone have different checkboxes than in the mac version. They look different, behave different. If I select one line in a list and move it, the bullets are not recreated properly.

V10 is a giant leap and many steps backwards. The giant leap seems to be: saving money by cutting down the dev team. I'm looking for alternatives. OneNote is not what I want. Joplin not really. What else is there?

Link to post
36 minutes ago, Weblogista said:

 I'm looking for alternatives. OneNote is not what I want. Joplin not really. What else is there?

if you are on the apple / mac side DevonThink is a real good substitute for my use cases (in fact it goes far beyond what EN "legacy" can do). have been using it for a month now and am very happy with it...

  • Like 1
Link to post

@Evernote, I am very worried about the current product situation and I'd like to beg you for clarification on your intentions.

The new product verion has so much differences in its working that it irreversibly destroys some formatting on your full notes collection. This is not a "have a try to the new version" scenario, but an irreversible disaster. I have few time for reporting but in the end, I see that my first reports of this severity remain unattended for 10 days - see linked issue below.

I currently have serious doubts about the company intentions. are you committed to work on solving all regressions, incompatibilities and damage to your users data, before discontinuing the legacy product and only then moving forward? Or will you just fix a concrete list of bugs, implement some features, and then saying "EN 10 final version, now this is our product, here you have, take it of leave it". It's important for your customers to take critical decisions and moving to the right service before the situation gets worse or it's too late for them to react. We have put our data and our daily workflow on your product and I am scared on the ways this may evolve from now to future.

Really thank you in advance.

 

 

Link to post

I don't know if this is the best way to complain, but the new evernote is so bad I'm considering starting to use a new platform (been using evernote for 6 years). I totally get that the developers will get bored and want to change company if you just keep the platform as it is without trying to improve it, but someone has made a huge error somewhere and completely ruined the product. It's so incredibly slow and sluggish now that it's almost un-usable. Seriously, have any of the devs even used the new evernote? If you can't see how much worse it is now then you need to honestly re-think your career.

Does anyone know a way to revert to the old evernote? Particularly on Android Mobile.

Link to post
8 hours ago, James0505 said:

Does anyone know a way to revert to the old evernote? Particularly on Android Mobile.

Alas, at the bottom of the page describing the Legacy version (i.e., the way it used to work) it says it's only for the Mac OS and Windows versions:

 

Quote

 

Can I use a legacy app on iOS or Android?

No. Evernote Legacy is only available for Mac and Windows.

 

In theory one could side load an earlier version on Android. If you/I/we had known how bad things would get we could have saved the earlier version of the application, its APK file. It would be easy for them to deny access to our information on their servers if it detected an earlier version however.

UPDATE: A web search revealed a site with an archive of older versions: apkpure.com. I'm sure there are others. How much you're willing to trust a third-party site is up to you.

Link to post
On 12/19/2020 at 9:19 PM, Wanderling Reborn said:

Why don't you use Onenote for meeting notes and daily activity? It's so well integrated with Office, Outlook and Teams, you're really missing out if you're not using it for that. (Onenote 2016, as Windows 10 app is too limited).

E.g. when I have a meeting, with just one click I create a Onenote page with all meeting data - including a sign in list where I can check off attendee names, agenda, and a Notes section. All of that is automatically copied from Outlook. I then brainstorm the meeting ahead of time under Notes, add links to relevant documents and emails (or just copy them  as attachments), and add checkmarks with all questions that need to be covered, checking them off as we go. Any notes to myself that I don't want to share with meeting go into a collapsed outline on the right side of note, outside the main body. If any actionable items come up during meeting, I create Outlook tasks right from my notes, without leaving Onenote. When I am done, I export meeting notes to PDF,  and distribute them to meeting participants with a few clicks in Outlook (right click on meeting in calendar, "Reply all", click on attachment icon, it will automatically suggest the last document created in any Office app). The "tags" (which are not really tags) is also a very powerful feature, when used right. It's a major time saver. 

I already answered your question. My company forces me to use centrally-managed Vmware image with Outlook 2016 to use corporate emails. If I would use OneNote for taking notes, it would stay inside virtual machine, I would have to copy it manually to destination because they blocked OneNote from using replacated or OneDrive folders for saving files.

I use Office 365 on host to do most of the job, then use Teams to replicate files to virtual machine - because admins blocked any normal communication between host and vmachine and using OneDrive to share files between host and virtual machine is simplest working option.

In my previous company I used OneNote 2016 because I could benefit from OneNote-Outlook integration, this is no longer the case.

I use Joplin on host because it is faster, easier and my notes are not hostage inside virtual machine.

Link to post
On 11/30/2020 at 12:14 PM, ELeatherwood said:

I am a writer and researcher who went all in on this platform 5 years ago, and whose careful tagging and filing over that time has been rendered unusable by this latest version. This actually affects my livelihood.

I have about 20,000 notes that represent five years of careful tagging. I use tags daily to cross-reference my research to write content.

...

 

 

I keep running into this issue with technology and I suspect others do as well. We invest significant time and effort over years to make use of some incredible tools that people create, like Evernote, and we are more than happy to continue to purchase or subscribe to their services as a result, but then our "house of cards" teeter on the brink of collapse when the product suddenly and unexpectedly breaks or dissolves. As you alluded to, as we each organize and tag thousands of records, enabling us to rapidly retrieve past thoughts and concepts through indexed searches, leaves us dependent on tools like this as a sort of auxiliary brain. Ultimately I only have myself to blame for this, investing so much confidence and faith in a single tool and service provider, rather than breaking it out among different products. If I were to start over, I would rearchitect my approach by possibly focusing on open source software (although there are certainly support and maintenance pitfalls there as well), as well as spreading out the approach to data organizing among multiple different products. The problem with splitting up our auxiliary brains between multiple products is that we lose data correlation (record "A" now relates to record "B" in a different information ecosystem). I suppose the only potential for rearchitecting one's approach would be to focus on using open standards (i.e., service-oriented architecture, microservices) in which different products can communicate back and forth, ideally between each other within an isolated offline instance and online. Or maybe Evernote will surprise us and fix their previously product offering, and I can continue my dependency on their previously awesome software even in light of its proprietary nature.

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, Chris Darby said:

I keep running into this issue with technology and I suspect others do as well. We invest significant time and effort over years to make use of some incredible tools that people create, like Evernote, and we are more than happy to continue to purchase or subscribe to their services as a result, but then our "house of cards" teeter on the brink of collapse when the product suddenly and unexpectedly breaks or dissolves. As you alluded to, as we each organize and tag thousands of records, enabling us to rapidly retrieve past thoughts and concepts through indexed searches, leaves us dependent on tools like this as a sort of auxiliary brain. Ultimately I only have myself to blame for this, investing so much confidence and faith in a single tool and service provider, rather than breaking it out among different products. If I were to start over, I would rearchitect my approach by possibly focusing on open source software (although there are certainly support and maintenance pitfalls there as well), as well as spreading out the approach to data organizing among multiple different products. The problem with splitting up our auxiliary brains between multiple products is that we lose data correlation (record "A" now relates to record "B" in a different information ecosystem). I suppose the only potential for rearchitecting one's approach would be to focus on using open standards (i.e., service-oriented architecture, microservices) in which different products can communicate back and forth, ideally between each other within an isolated offline instance and online. Or maybe Evernote will surprise us and fix their previously product offering, and I can continue my dependency on their previously awesome software even in light of its proprietary nature.

This whole episode with Evernote 10 has made me realize that it is really important for me to break away from a proprietary system in which 10 years of my work could possibly be at the mercy of decisions made that do not necessarily consider my best interests at heart.  Even if Evernote were to completely reverse their decision on rolling out what I believe to be an inferior solution, I would still feel this way.

But, to be clear, choosing an open source solution like Joplin is not for everyone.  I am very close to having transferred all 10 years of my notes and attachments into Joplin, to sync between my Windows laptop, my iPad and my Android phone.  I've spent about 20 hours on this in the past 2 weeks and below are some of the issues I have encountered:

- Just the process of importing Evernote files into Joplin is not without difficulty.  I tried doing a mass import but found that many notes coming from Evernote needed some handling and manipulating once imported, for example, Joplin's sync system does not handle large (>10MB) files too well.  That's fine as I have decided that I do not want to attach anything that large, but it made mass imports unworkable, so I ended up importing Evernote files ~150 at a time, then checking attachments and pruning after each import.

- The biggest challenge of Joplin itself is the syncing process.  If you will only use one computer, it is easy and you can back everything up locally for safe keeping.  In my case, I need to sync between the 3 devices mentioned above.  In order to do this you need to choose a cloud provider that is compatible with syncing.  For this you have 3 choices - NextCloud/WebDAV, Microsoft OneDrive, or DropBox.  I tried each of these in order, and even though WebDAV holds great promise ($17 per year for 50GB of space from Cloudamo, for example), but the management of this was too difficult for my large number of files.   OneDrive worked really well and you can get 100GB for $1.99 per month.  Unfortunately, there is an issue in Joplin (being worked on) where if a note is 4MB or larger OneDrive sync fails and it is almost impossible to recover.  Some of my notes are that size, but it is hard to know which ones were causing the problem, and I had to give up for now.  Until this is fixed, I don't recommend OneDrive.  There is a way to setup your own NextCloud server using a Raspberry Pi and I am looking into that.

I finally settled on DropBox and it works really well.  Unfortunately, their lowest cost paid plan is $12 per month for 2TB of storage, and I already pay Google for 2TB of Drive storage (doesn't work for Joplin reliably, unfortunately) and I don't want to change.  Luckily, after I pruned things,   my total storage is around 3GB and I have 6GB of DropBox storage, so I will be OK there for a while.  I did encounter an issue where a few very small image files were stopping sync from completing, but I was able to track that down and delete the offending files.

There are things about Joplin I really like: The Windows client is very similar to Evernote; searching is fast and accurate - way better than Evernote 10; the web clipper of Joplin is VERY nice, better than Evernote's.  One missing feature is that you cannot email into Joplin to create notes, but that is a small sacrifice and one I can work around.  Tags work the same in Joplin as in Evernote and much to Ian Small's chagrin, I have about 500 tags :)  

Overall, if you are willing to put in the effort, Joplin is very much a viable alternative, and I expect it is going to continue to get better and better as the development team is motivated and talented.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
4 minutes ago, NorcalScott said:

This whole episode with Evernote 10 has made me realize that it is really important for me to break away ... Overall, if you are willing to put in the effort, Joplin is very much a viable alternative, and I expect it is going to continue to get better and better as the development team is motivated and talented.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with this, I do greatly appreciate it.

  • Like 1
Link to post
  • Level 5*
15 minutes ago, NorcalScott said:

it is really important for me to break away from a proprietary system

For me, it is really important to be able to exit from a proprietary system   
Evernote's export feature provides the assurance that my data is not locked in  

In the meantime, I'm able to make use of the Evernote features; organization, search, ...   

Note, I'm using Evernote's Legacy product    
I won't consider using the Version 10 product until the ongoing work is completed

Link to post
19 minutes ago, NorcalScott said:

This whole episode with Evernote 10 has made me realize that it is really important for me to break away from a proprietary system in which 10 years of my work could possibly be at the mercy of decisions made that do not necessarily consider my best interests at heart. 

What makes you so sure that your work is not at the mercy of decisions by the Joplin team? Does the Joplin team has sufficient human and financial resources to survive?

Link to post
1 hour ago, DTLow said:

For me, it is really important to be able to exit from a proprietary system   
Evernote's export feature provides the assurance that my data is not locked in  

In the meantime, I'm able to make use of the Evernote features; organization, search, ...   

Note, I'm using Evernote's Legacy product    
I won't consider using the Version 10 product until the ongoing work is completed

I agree that to date Evernote has made it somewhat easy to export files that can be imported into other solutions.  However, these exports in the ENEX format are still proprietary and require quite a bit of manipulation in order to handle in another application, which is one reason for some of my problems.  Joplin can export in mark-down text which is much easier to manipulate on import into a different product.

One thing all Evernote subscribers should be aware of - Evernote 10 only allows for export of 50 files at a time as the database will be cloud hosted only as far as we know. (I suppose they could change all this, but the indications so far are troubling)  As long as you can use the Legacy product, you can get at all your files.  However, once this goes away, you may not have that luxury, and it will go away, we just don't know when.

  • Like 2
Link to post
56 minutes ago, eric99 said:

What makes you so sure that your work is not at the mercy of decisions by the Joplin team? Does the Joplin team has sufficient human and financial resources to survive?

Joplin is led by the creator of the project, and there are around 30-40 other developers who work on it in their spare time.  There are no guarantees, of course, but the work there is motivated by a desire to move the solution ahead, not by the profit and loss of venture capitalist funds.  Many folks also contribute money to Joplin to help cover costs.

In any event, as it is open source and the data files are easily exported as mark down text, I don't see much risk, but your opinion of that risk may be different than mine.

  • Like 2
Link to post
  • Level 5*
31 minutes ago, NorcalScott said:

However, these exports in the ENEX format are still proprietary

I use the HTML export option - it's not proprietary

>>Evernote 10 only allows for export of 50 files at a time as the database will be cloud hosted only as far as we know

Our expectation is the 50 note limit will be removed as the project development proceeds
Note: There is no limit when exporting entire notebooks

fwiw   Export is a local function, not cloud
            The export is from the local database

Link to post
5 minutes ago, NorcalScott said:

Joplin can export in mark-down text which is much easier to manipulate on import into a different product.

One thing all Evernote subscribers should be aware of - Evernote 10 only allows for export of 50 files at a time as the database will be cloud hosted only as far as we know.

The ENEX format is a very strict XML format, actually a XHTML subset with only a few extra EN tags. It is formally well described in a XML scheme http://xml.evernote.com/pub/evernote-export3.dtd which can be used to validate the notes against.  There is plenty of software available to parse XML, which makes the import into other note taking apps much easier.

At the other hand, mark down format looks great, but I have the impression that it is not standardized very well. There are  several incompatible flavors of it. Maybe, this has been solved in the mean time?

Markdown is also very limited, see the comments from the Joplin author:  https://joplinapp.org/rich_text_editor/

 

Evernote export of complete notebooks is already possible in V10, so this 50 files limit is no issue for a full  database export. What is still missing is the HTML export but EN promised that other options will come.

 

..."

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
28 minutes ago, DTLow said:

I use the HTML export option - it's not proprietary

>>Evernote 10 only allows for export of 50 files at a time as the database will be cloud hosted only as far as we know

Our expectation is the 50 note limit will be removed as the project development proceeds
Note: There is no limit when exporting entire notebooks

fwiw   Export is a local function, not cloud
            The export is from the local database

I've not had much success doing anything with the HTML export - most of the other products do not interpret it correctly and you end up with a lot of orphan files if you try to import it.  However, as a strict backup it does make a lot of sense, and I'll give credit to Evernote for providing this.

Regarding the export - I understand that "today" the export is from the local database, but my understanding is that the new platform will do the export from the cloud.  I may be wrong, as there has been very little information provided as to the future plans (that I've seen).  If that is the case, then the 50 limit (or maybe a moderately higher number) makes sense as exported GBs worth of data from the cloud will be cumbersome.

Not to be a Joplin fanboy, because it does have its quirks - but it allows for a "RAW" export in which data is saved to a directory and each item represented by a single file.  This is very handy for future proofing.

  • Like 1
Link to post
34 minutes ago, eric99 said:

The ENEX format is a very strict XML format, actually a XHTML subset with only a few extra EN tags. It is formally well described in a XML scheme http://xml.evernote.com/pub/evernote-export3.dtd which can be used to validate the notes against.  There is plenty of software available to parse XML, which makes the import into other note taking apps much easier.

At the other hand, mark down format looks great, but I have the impression that it is not standardized very well. There are  several incompatible flavors of it. Maybe, this has been solved in the mean time?

Markdown is also very limited, see the comments from the Joplin author:  https://joplinapp.org/rich_text_editor/

 

Evernote export of complete notebooks is already possible in V10, so this 50 files limit is no issue for a full  database export. What is still missing is the HTML export but EN promised that other options will come.

 

..."

You are right that mark down is somewhat limited but there are some very good open source command line tools that can do quite a bit with it for getting data into and out of other systems.

Good to know that the 50 file limit is no longer an issue.  That alone would be a show stopper for me.

It may be good if Evernote would just provide a full accounting of what they are planning, and when the legacy products will be deprecated.  If their intentions are in the user's best long-term interests, they have certainly caused themselves a lot of harm with the lack of communications.

Link to post

I don't hate the new Evernote and overall I find lots of improvements, even though a few things really annoy me (see below). I am luckily not among those who had their workflows broken, e.g. I hardly use tags, but I do understand the frustration of the many power users who feel like they've been abandoned. The latest post from the CEO sounds promising, and while they've made some mistakes, it doesn't seem to me that they are ignoring their customers; I have some hope that a lot of what is infuriating people is going to be addressed soon. I personally find the new Mac version better overall, it's much cleaner and search is finally prioritising matches with notes titles. In-note search is also much better, as it supports a queries made of multiple words.

That said, there's still a couple of things that I see as red flags, and others that I find frustrating:

- I welcome the idea of having just four styles (normal text, 3 headers) apply to all my notes and making them look cleaner. The problem is that all the existing content has now been tagged as "normal style", and modified accordingly. My notes are not looking more consistent, but they are harder to read compared to my previous base style (Helvetica 16, which was still a bit too small on my iMac). While others find this new font size too big, I would actually like to convert the base style to 20 dp, sans serif. The problem is that nowhere can the user choose what the font size (and typeface) for this default styles should be. In order to modify normal text to 20 dp, the only option I have is to select the "Update 'normal text' to match" command, but if I do that, all content gets updated accordingly, and any bold/italic text is going to loose its formatting (luckily, cmd + Z also applies, but I had a backup, just in case!). An alternative option is to select all text and increase the font size, but guess what, all the line breaks would maintain the standard 16 dp size, which means, every time I add new content somewhere in the note, it would be a 16 dp font.

- Export: this is another deal breaker. I don't want Evernote to become a walled garden. Even though I found reassuring to hear the comment from eric99 about the enex format being relatively easy to handle, I find it preposterous that in the new version, I cannot export to HTML. The new release page promises more export options, so hopefully HTML is going to be back, together with the possibility to add more than 50 notes. I would also appreciate being able to export to an open format: as long as Evernote will continue to be a great piece of software and allow me to export easily and in multiple format migrating is not something that I would consider. On the contrary, what is making me think of alternatives right now, is having all my existing content stuck into a proprietary format.

- Tabs have been removed. While the way they used to work made them almost useless, I see how I could benefit from having multiple notes open at the same time, e.g. if I want to copy/paste content from one note to the other. The best way to implement this, in my opinion, would be to add a contextual option to "Open in a new tab" next to "Open in new window". The new tab would have the name of the note, and be fully independent and separated from the search results it comes from (if any).

- Anchors within notes: this is a feature that I wish will be available one day. I don't want to have a million notes so I rather have a few of them (still more than 300 actually!), but many of them have separate sections, with dividers and headers to easily recognise them. I would like to create anchors so I can easily jump to a specific section within the note. I'd be fine with a dropdown, even if that would mean two clicks, still easier than scrolling down and having to recognise where the desired section is. A side panel would actually be ideal, and not big deal on a large monitor (just make it optional).

- I want to be able to press the Esc key and see highlighted text matching the search query disappear. Really annoying that I cannot do that the same way that I can do it in a browser.

- Two clicks to open links: as someone else has noted, this is quite frustrating, and I would like an option to disable that. Luckily it's possible to cmd + click and open in just one step, but not sure if I will always remember.

  • Like 1
Link to post
  • Level 5*
1 hour ago, LucaBen said:

- Anchors within notes: this is a feature that I wish will be available one day. I don't want to have a million notes so I rather have a few of them (still more than 300 actually!), but many of them have separate sections, with dividers and headers to easily recognise them. I would like to create anchors so I can easily jump to a specific section within the note. I'd be fine with a dropdown, even if that would mean two clicks. Still easier than scrolling down and having to recognise where the desired section is.

Anchors, outline mode, internal note links. This category of features has been highly requested for many years. Amazing that at the end of 2020, EN still does not have it.

It's one of the key reasons I'm experimenting with Joplin (along with no local notebooks and no zero knowledge encryption). The built-in editor has a TOC function that checks for markdown headers in the note and builds a TOC at the top of the note, which gets updated as headers are added or deleted. A convenient way to navigate long notes. Another option is using an external editor like Typora, which has outline view - there's a left pane that shows all your headers in an outline format, very much like the TOC in Joplin's native editor, except the outline view, when enabled, is always onscreen. So you can click around to your different headers, while in the native editor, you have to get back to the top of the screen (CTRL+Home or CMD+Home) to access TOC.

  • Like 3
Link to post

I use tags a LOT. I use the web clipper often. I cannot stand to have the small web clipper green elephant head constantly showing in Safari. I'm fine with it in the menu at the top. Right click to bring up save options has been good. I don't want my apps to work or look like Windows apps. I'd work in Windows if that's what I wanted. What drove me to look up the Evernote forums where I see many complaints is the elephant head web clipper right on my screen ALL THE TIME. There is no need for it to take up the visual space.  It takes mental processing to ignore something and that should not be necessary and to force on all osx users. It could be terrible for someone with visual disabilities. Allow for an off switch. It won't even let me kill it in activity monitor. This is how spam works. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, tavor said:

Anchors, outline mode, internal note links. This category of features has been highly requested for many years. Amazing that at the end of 2020, EN still does not have it.

It's one of the key reasons I'm experimenting with Joplin (along with no local notebooks and no zero knowledge encryption). The built-in editor has a TOC function that checks for markdown headers in the note and builds a TOC at the top of the note, which gets updated as headers are added or deleted. A convenient way to navigate long notes. Another option is using an external editor like Typora, which has outline view - there's a left pane that shows all your headers in an outline format, very much like the TOC in Joplin's native editor, except the outline view, when enabled, is always onscreen. So you can click around to your different headers, while in the native editor, you have to get back to the top of the screen (CTRL+Home or CMD+Home) to access TOC.

Onenote has that functionality, FWIW.

  • Like 1
Link to post

For Windows app:

No more colored notebooks

No more moving multiple notes using drag n drop

NO MORE RENAMING NOTEBOOKS!!??!! There's not even a menu that comes out when when you right click on a notebook!!

NO MORE PREFERENCES! (I just want it to start as my windows start, is that too much to ask?!)  

This is just another wake up call not to rely too much on tech.

Link to post
  • Level 5
1 hour ago, ha-kg said:

I tried today some exports and was confronted with the limit of 50 Notes to be marked and the export only to enex format.

You can install whatever you want. 

But you should tell the whole story:

  • The limit of 50 notes only apply when you select them individually
  • Export of complete notebooks works in v10, independently from the number of notes 
  • If you install legacy, you can still use all export features as before 
Link to post
On 12/26/2020 at 6:17 PM, LucaBen said:

My notes are not looking more consistent, but they are harder to read compared to my previous base style (Helvetica 16, which was still a bit too small on my iMac). While others find this new font size too big, I would actually like to convert the base style to 20 dp, sans serif. The problem is that nowhere can the user choose what the font size (and typeface) for this default styles should be.

I agree that this is an issue, one that will hopefully be resolved when the preferences pane is released in 2021.

In the meantime, you may want to try zooming the whole interface to make it more readable. This is accomplished just like in a browser, with Cmd/Ctrl combined with the -/= keys to decrease or magnify, respectively.

  • Like 1
Link to post
17 minutes ago, Paul A. said:

you may want to try zooming the whole interface to make it more readable. This is accomplished just like in a browser, with Cmd/Ctrl combined with the -/= keys to decrease or magnify, respectively

Oh my goodness, has it really come to this?

  • Haha 1
Link to post
17 hours ago, KirbyC said:

For Windows app:

NO MORE RENAMING NOTEBOOKS!!??!! There's not even a menu that comes out when when you right click on a notebook!!

Just click the notebook-list icon and right click the required notebook => rename

Edit: I do understand your confusion, because this doesn't work when you hover over the tags, why is there different behaviour (the same problem for labels)

Edit: why is the speed menu invoked with a right click in case of notebooks and for labels the right click is replaced by '...'  ?  Is this a consistent GUI ?

 

Edited by eric99
Link to post
6 hours ago, Paul A. said:

In the meantime, you may want to try zooming the whole interface to make it more readable. This is accomplished just like in a browser, with Cmd/Ctrl combined with the -/= keys to decrease or magnify, respectively.

Thanks for the heads-up. I did try it but didn't work, was not aware the equal sign must be used, instead (and wonder why, it's actually not fully consistent with standard browser behaviour).

Link to post
On 12/26/2020 at 8:57 PM, NorcalScott said:

- Just the process of importing Evernote files into Joplin is not without difficulty.  I tried doing a mass import but found that many notes coming from Evernote needed some handling and manipulating once imported, for example, Joplin's sync system does not handle large (>10MB) files too well.  That's fine as I have decided that I do not want to attach anything that large, but it made mass imports unworkable, so I ended up importing Evernote files ~150 at a time, then checking attachments and pruning after each import.
 

Overall, if you are willing to put in the effort, Joplin is very much a viable alternative, and I expect it is going to continue to get better and better as the development team is motivated and talented.

Last days, I've been testing Joplin import of my full database (3700 notes). At a certain point I got an import problem for a single web clip note, due to an inconsistent Enex file (invalid XML). I reported this problem on the joplin forum and within 10 minutes,  the Joplin author asked me some info, and after less than half an hour, he worked around the enex problem and released it, problem solved 🙂 If I would have asked evernote to fix the root cause, the invalid XML in the ENEX generator or web clipper, it would probably take a couple of months...

In the mean time, he's still improving the import of web clipped notes. He's now at the point that these clipped notes looks sometimes better in Joplin than in EN. All this progress in a few days...

Also interesting to know, Joplin is built on electron too, exactly the same platform as EN V10. So there is still hope for EN, performance shouldn't be an issue...

Edited by eric99
  • Like 3
Link to post

Totally agree. Sell people o something that is supposed to help them and then periodically just scramble th UI so it takes them out of their comfortable place. As with most apps, change for changes sake and not thought out from the perspective of people that are paying the bills. As an Evernote Premium for last 7 years, it has lost what attracted me to it in the first place. I have till April or May before I pay my annual, but right now I'm leaning toward leaving.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, eric99 said:

Last days, I've been testing Joplin import of my full database (3700 notes). At a certain point I got an import problem for a single web clip note, due to an inconsistent Enex file (invalid XML). I reported this problem on the joplin forum and within 10 minutes,  the Joplin author asked me some info, and after less than half an hour, he worked around the enex problem and released it, problem solved 🙂

In the mean time, he's still improving the import of web clipped notes. He's now at the point that these clipped notes looks sometimes better in Joplin than in EN. All this progress in a few days...

Also interesting to know, Joplin is built on electron too, exactly the same platform as EN V10. So there is still hope for EN, performance shouldn't be an issue...

Yes, the responsiveness of the Joplin author, Laurent, is great, and he is always cordial no matter how basic the question.  I am fully up and running now on Joplin and really liking it.  I have about 10,000 notes loaded and syncing through DropBox between my Windows laptop, iPad (Air 2019) and Android phone (LG G7).

The biggest surprise with Joplin is how good the web clipper is.  I have tried all the different page capture formats and am finding that "Clip Simplified Page" is almost always perfect.  Search also is superb - results on all platforms come up in seconds.

It is strange that both Evernote 10 and Joplin are both written in Electron, considering how better performing Joplin is on the desktop.  I think that the database part of it is the difference - hopefully Evernote can make that work better, because for someone with a lot of note, it is a deal breaker.

  • Like 1
Link to post

I have recently moved my 15,000+ notes and tags to joplin. Currently just stored on my Windows laptop but looking at various sync options to be able to access from Android and Linux devices.

Joplin does store everything locally, contrary to what @tavor said. It is stored in a SQLite DB, at least on my Windows boxes. The nice thing about having it in this open format is that I can examine it, write scripts against it, back it up - all without using proprietary tools like EN's. I use JetBrains DataGrip but SQLiteStudio looks really nice also.

And of course what others have said - Joplin is open-source, has a nice RESTful API, and supports plugins very well.

  • Like 4
Link to post
13 hours ago, ripwit said:

I have recently moved my 15,000+ notes and tags to joplin. Currently just stored on my Windows laptop but looking at various sync options to be able to access from Android and Linux devices.

Joplin does store everything locally, contrary to what @tavor said. It is stored in a SQLite DB, at least on my Windows boxes. The nice thing about having it in this open format is that I can examine it, write scripts against it, back it up - all without using proprietary tools like EN's. I use JetBrains DataGrip but SQLiteStudio looks really nice also.

And of course what others have said - Joplin is open-source, has a nice RESTful API, and supports plugins very well.

I like the mark down format more and more since I compared ENEX format with MarkDown format.

Even for the simplest notes, ENEX files are still very verbose and heavy.

It's amazing that complicated web clips notes can still be expressed in simple human readable MarkDown format, without loosing essential info. And for exceptional difficult fragments,  MarkDown format allows HTML snippets if needed.

  • Like 2
Link to post

My three monthly check in - probably the last though :) Yep, still very, very happy with Joplin after one year.

A few weeks ago my Evernote premium subscription expired. Just before that happened I finally cleaned out all my notes (which were lagging behind now anyway). That also means I just missed the entire v10 "upgrade" and from the looks of it, I didn't miss much!

So long everyone, perhaps we'll meet again some day - here or there :D 

  • Like 3
Link to post
3 hours ago, TechPerplexed said:

That also means I just missed the entire v10 "upgrade" and from the looks of it, I didn't miss much!

v10 "upgrade" that is completely unusable for several non-English users (myself included), due to conflict between hard-coded shortcuts of Alt-Grey mapping with several default keyboard mapping for Polish, Latvian, Turkish, English-International etc.

PS. I still use Evernote Legacy in parallel with Joplin+Dropbox, but continue to clean-up old notes and be ready to move-out.

New notes in Joplin. I had to rethink my approach to tags (because Joplin currently uses FLAT tags due to performance issues) but after 9 years of collecting data in Evernote a refresh in approach is necessary.

Link to post
4 minutes ago, Piotas said:

I still use Evernote Legacy in parallel with Joplin+Dropbox

I did that as well for a while, because I wanted to make sure that Joplin was suitable for my needs before abandoning Evernote. Even then it was quite nerve wrecking still to delete all my old Evernote notes at last, I can tell you that!

One of the game changing features of Joplin (to me) was the nested notebooks. Once I started to organize my notes that way, I knew there wouldn't ever be a way back... I tried tags in Evernote but it quickly turned out to be a hot mess in my case. I am a very hierarchical person apparently so the way that works in Joplin suits my needs perfectly. In Evernote I was always trying to juggle how many notebooks to place in how many stacks, and how many notes I could cram into as few notebooks as possible. In Joplin if a notebook gets too crowded or unruly, I can just divide the notes into into a few additional categories within that notebook, problem solved.

I also really appreciate how easy it is to backup the entire Joplin database including the notebook hierarchy and then restore everything seamlessly with almost one single click. I am no longer frightened to lose my Joplin notes, with the weekly backup, local storage on two Windows machines and my Samsung Note 20. I recently upgraded from the Note 8 and it was as simple as installing the app and connecting to Dropbox - a few hours later all my notes were present.

At first I missed a few Evernote features such as the PDF in-note display and the visually attractive note thumbnails, but I found that this in itself wasn't enough to keep me with Evernote in the end.

  • Like 2
Link to post
9 minutes ago, TechPerplexed said:

 I recently upgraded from the Note 8 and it was as simple as installing the app and connecting to Dropbox - a few hours later all my notes were present.

At first I missed a few Evernote features such as the PDF in-note display and the visually attractive note thumbnails, but I found that this in itself wasn't enough to keep me with Evernote in the end.

Moving from Evernote to Joplin required few changes in mindset. Due to OneDrive limitation with large files (related to method of choice of fast sync) I moved to Dropbox, as side effect I did second transition: having large media files in your note taking app is simply unpractical and no longer required, as I can link freely cloud-based large files and folders (I use 5 cloud-based file storages) to my Joplin notes via hyperlinks. Long meeting with audio notes and transcript? No longer have to put it into note taking app - linking a note to audio file on GoogleDrive (for long term archive) via hyperlink is much more convenient. And so on...

  • Like 2
Link to post

Thanks all! The new Evernote seems unusable here too — but I don't understand the complaints about advanced features, because EN 10 struggles in *creating* and *showing* notes. That is, creating a note (with Cmd-N) and typing in it is not reliable. I'll stick to Evernote Legacy for now.

I understand a bit why they rewrote the app: some longstanding bugs in the old app suggested it had very serious problems hidden behind the facade — those bugs were mostly hidden well, but I've long believed EN wasn't able to deliver working software, and feared it might be near bankruptcy. Rewriting your app can make sense, if you can avoid the mistakes of the first time. And some bugs are unavoidable — software is hard. But this doesn't seem much of an improvement!

  • Like 2
Link to post

Just to piggyback on this general discussion, especially in view of the apparent deprecation of tags in EN and lack of nested tags in Joplin.

I have worked in the healthcare information world for a while but have many interests overlapping and outside, especially AI/ML. So many articles of interest overlap so many domains that I found a rigid hierarchical structure confining, no matter how nested. Early on I tried capturing notes based on the job/employer I was with. This didn't work as I started to realize that notes from other employers and domains could be useful in all contexts. Duplicating notes or just using references was obviously a kludge.

I started building EN canned searches using boolean expressions to pull up relevant material. For example: "tag:cancer -tag:melanoma" would give me all non-melanoma cancer notes. This is an artificial example but it mirrors what I started using.

Just before moving to Joplin from EN I tagged all notes in a particular notebook with "_notebook name" and then I copies all notes into one large EN folder. This is what I exported/imported into Joplin. 15,000+ notes with tags intact.

I still don't have saved searches (that I know of) nor very good boolean searches, especially on tags.

Still the pace of improvements and the ability of the community to contribute to this effort makes me very hopeful.

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
On 10/20/2020 at 7:26 PM, gazumped said:

Hi.  You don't mention whether this is Mac, Windows or mobile,  but have you tried stepping back to the last public version?  v10 is pretty much a skeleton so doesn't display much,  but if your data still exists within Evernote (or you have a usable backup) you may find the Legacy versions are the best place to stay for a while... 

But you would perhaps agree that we should not really be having to do that? It's a nightmare, how can this be called an update?

  • Like 2
Link to post

Used to love evernote.   These recent updates have made it super annoying to do the simplest things like renaming a stack.   Every day i'm finding myself googling how to fix these annoying bugs/features.  

Seriously considering notion or one of the other apps!!  

Link to post
  • Level 5*
30 minutes ago, QFieldBoden said:

But you would perhaps agree that we should not really be having to do that? It's a nightmare, how can this be called an update?

In an ideal world every new device and app would work perfectly and us poor users wouldn't have to do anything other than lie back on the beach and browse to our hearts content - but there's actually a long history of new developments being driven by advancing tech vs demanding finance. 

Those nice smartphones we use that you can politely ask how to make an omelette - and watch a video demo if you need it - developed out of hefty unattractive blocks of plastic that were 'portable' only in a generous interpretation of the word.  And the first genuine pocket phones (remember Matrix?) had LCD screens that were... a little limited in scope and strictly black and slightly less black.  (Don't talk to me about WAP - I used to do tech support on that stuff...)

The only way the manufacturers could fund the later development of color screens and 200gm phones was to sell the early cr*p.  R&D costs a LOT - and when do you stop?  In principle (and if they had unlimited cash) we could all still be driving Model T's now while car makers kept aiming for a 'proper' flying car.

OK - so do I devoutly wish Evernote had sold this launch a whole lot better?  Heck yes!  If they'd made v10 a voluntary public beta and invited general access,  a lot of folks would have moved over and given them the live test data that they desperately need - how well do their new systems bear up under the humungous load of the entire population of a medium-size country using them on a 365/24/7 basis?  Normal QA and beta testing just doesn't do volume.

The new version was - like Elon Musk's Starships - a cut-down test model meant to prove it worked.  Surprise! It didn't.  But in rewriting their entire code base and potentially removing 80% of their coding overhead,  plus a lot of development roadblocks it is - like Starship again - definitely an update on present models. 

They're doing an Elon and iterating their way through updates that add extra (code) engines to the basic frame,  and - I imagine fairly quickly - we should get pretty much the full range of the 'legacy' apps back.

Meantime I'm continuing to operate in my own little bubble without any disruption - because being tech-savvy I know NOT to be first with new tech,  and I killed all the automatic update functions on my various devices and apps before they were tempted to do anything silly.

I don't have much sympathy with anyone currently having issues (unless they're on iOS!!) because on most operating systems and devices there's a way either to dump the new app and go back to the old ones,  or to run the official Legacy app alongside the new.

But everyone seems to be struggling and demanding that Evernote fix the issues - which is exactly what they're busy doing anyway!  If you're not prepared for the hassle - just go back to the old app!!  Evernote will fix things - eventually.

They should just have shared their strategy clearly with everyone before they started,  and posted something along the lines of this comment publicly so that users don't feel so frustratingly ignored.

Here endeth my rant for 2021.  Happy New Year!

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post

I download the legacy version but it wants me to pay as a new user and does not contain my notes.  How do I "sign in" to the old legacy so it recognizes me and so it has my notes, and then eliminate the V10 version for now?

Thank you for your help!

 

Link to post
  • Level 5*
3 minutes ago, Pbpamela said:

new user and does not contain my notes

It seems like you created a new account
Log out, and log back in with your original id/password

Link to post
  • Level 5*

What's it been, three months now?  And V10 is still a steaming pile relative to most power users.  Some progress has been made but only a fraction of what is needed.  Unfortunately I have V10 on my iPhone.  Randomly I get duplicate notes now after editing one there.  That's special.

Sure 6.25.1 is working fine for me, same as @gazumped,  but the major question for me remains what is NOT coming back on this iterative catch up journey?  And how long does 6.25.1 live?  Crickets.  Disrespectful on a good day.

The recent video didn't make me feel a whole lot better as the issues were brushed aside (emperor got any clothes?).  It's one thing if function is "delayed" another when the stuff that is there doesn't work - sync and search and the like.  I know it's complicated reengineering a platform but that's no excuse for creating a sh!#storm in the process.  Somebody needs to care somewhere.  

If the company wants to change its target market just let us know so we can get on with it.  This dangling stuff is a PITA.  End of my first rant for 2021.

  • Like 6
Link to post
39 minutes ago, CalS said:

Unfortunately I have V10 on my iPhone.  Randomly I get duplicate notes now after editing one there.  That's special.

Oh yippee (sarcasm here), good to know it’s not just me who is having this issue on iOS of random duplication of notes when editing them on a single device. Wish they had a view to show just Notes with Conflicts so I can easily find the duplicates.

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, luvmyc6 said:

Oh yippee (sarcasm here), good to know it’s not just me who is having this issue on iOS of random duplication of notes when editing them on a single device. Wish they had a view to show just Notes with Conflicts so I can easily find the duplicates.

FYI I posted a v10 feature request for a conflicts view: https://discussion.evernote.com/forums/topic/132858-provide-a-view-to-easily-find-notes-with-conflicts/

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
2 hours ago, gazumped said:

In an ideal world every new device and app would work perfectly and us poor users wouldn't have to do anything other than lie back on the beach and browse to our hearts content - but there's actually a long history of new developments being driven by advancing tech vs demanding finance. 

Those nice smartphones we use that you can politely ask how to make an omelette - and watch a video demo if you need it - developed out of hefty unattractive blocks of plastic that were 'portable' only in a generous interpretation of the word.  And the first genuine pocket phones (remember Matrix?) had LCD screens that were... a little limited in scope and strictly black and slightly less black.  (Don't talk to me about WAP - I used to do tech support on that stuff...)

The only way the manufacturers could fund the later development of color screens and 200gm phones was to sell the early cr*p.  R&D costs a LOT - and when do you stop?  In principle (and if they had unlimited cash) we could all still be driving Model T's now while car makers kept aiming for a 'proper' flying car.

OK - so do I devoutly wish Evernote had sold this launch a whole lot better?  Heck yes!  If they'd made v10 a voluntary public beta and invited general access,  a lot of folks would have moved over and given them the live test data that they desperately need - how well do their new systems bear up under the humungous load of the entire population of a medium-size country using them on a 365/24/7 basis?  Normal QA and beta testing just doesn't do volume.

The new version was - like Elon Musk's Starships - a cut-down test model meant to prove it worked.  Surprise! It didn't.  But in rewriting their entire code base and potentially removing 80% of their coding overhead,  plus a lot of development roadblocks it is - like Starship again - definitely an update on present models. 

They're doing an Elon and iterating their way through updates that add extra (code) engines to the basic frame,  and - I imagine fairly quickly - we should get pretty much the full range of the 'legacy' apps back.

Meantime I'm continuing to operate in my own little bubble without any disruption - because being tech-savvy I know NOT to be first with new tech,  and I killed all the automatic update functions on my various devices and apps before they were tempted to do anything silly.

I don't have much sympathy with anyone currently having issues (unless they're on iOS!!) because on most operating systems and devices there's a way either to dump the new app and go back to the old ones,  or to run the official Legacy app alongside the new.

But everyone seems to be struggling and demanding that Evernote fix the issues - which is exactly what they're busy doing anyway!  If you're not prepared for the hassle - just go back to the old app!!  Evernote will fix things - eventually.

They should just have shared their strategy clearly with everyone before they started,  and posted something along the lines of this comment publicly so that users don't feel so frustratingly ignored.

Here endeth my rant for 2021.  Happy New Year!

A rant indeed, I agree with that. The fact is that they should NOT be testing a release of this magnitude without pre-warning people and certainly not on a live system with a large user base which relies on it and entrusts it with data that is important to them. I at least am not asking for sympathy I'm asking for developments and new deployments to be handled reasonably and responsibly and with the paying user in mind. This has simply been handled terribly, users have been left with a worse system and that's inexcusable. 

  • Like 3
Link to post

Oh the drama! 

I am so glad that Evernote finally bit the bullet and decided to take this risk, I'd give them 4 months to work out the kinks.  Productivity switching costs to another service will justify at least that much time.

The technical debt inside Evernote was huge (and still is - see below).  For those looking to jump ship, good luck.  Check out reddit for OneNote users or the many others that come back to Evernote and you might pause on that for a bit.  For business reasons I watch OneNote closely too.  They have their own issues, mostly their lack of prioritization within the Microsoft ecosystem.  Development and focus move in fits and starts as you would suspect with a free product.

All this said, I understand the pain.  Years of building workflows, learning nuances and not having to deal with the muckiness of change to the core.  This must be truly debilitating for many.  I can see that.

But, Evernote is a business and I want it to survive.  To do that, they need to strike a very difficult balance of bringing in new paying customers while losing only a few existing paying customers.  Not easy!   They tried the Business market.  They tried competing with Slack.  They tried socks for God's sake.  Now, they have to do what was needed all along.  Build an efficient, sustainable business built on the core of their competitive advantage.  That requires them to focus on getting their core product right to build a sustainable future.  I blogged about this years ago and it's what we thought Chris O'Neill would do.  Now Ian, actually pulled the trigger and ripped the band-aid.  Good for him.

  • Did this effort actually focus the company?  So far, not really.  Too many competing interests I guess (see the balance comment above).  At least he's trying.
  • Did they communicate the change well?  Absolutely not.  Transparency in fits and starts is not transparency.  Evernote has never really learned that in multiple iterations.  Transparency is showing your roadmap and financial with the challenge within each.  Don't expect that in a competitive environment where NONE of their competitors are doing the same.
  • Was the beta test good enough and long enough?  Maybe.  With 200 million installs, they could've beta tested for years.  I think the real failing was getting more power users in on the known compromises and not being ready for they inevitable challenges that come from such a big change.
  • Will it be over soon?  Sorta.  I suspect in 120 days, the worst will be over.  The features with broadest appeal and ease of implementation will be back.  Speed and syncing will be improved, but probably not finished or back to the "old days".  Most importantly, the loudest and most hurt by the changes will be gone.  This will allow greater focus on the new paying customers that can be brought in.

When this episode is over, the change I've been waiting for can fully begin.  You see, behind that technical debt on the front-end is years of technical debt on the backend.  They started addressing that with the move to Google's cloud.  But their API is woefully behind the times and developers are under-supported compared to rivals.  I think they know this, but that obviously has to come after the primary product that users see and use daily.

Ultimately, I think Evernote became a prisoner of its own freemium success.  They showed the whole world the challenges of measuring growth in users instead of revenue.  With all those users and the infrastructure to support them, change became even harder.  I'm 1000% positive that spending $250M in VC money to just fix the foundation of your existing product did not go over well.  

Now, they've bitten the bullet.  We'll see if it was worth it.  I'm betting in 18 months, they'll declare that it was. 

(Geez, this was so long, probably should've been a blog post instead 🤣)

  • Like 5
Link to post

I have no doubt that there are good reasons for doing this. From an end user point of view when the product's primary function is storage and retrieval (a "second brain" I think it was called) if the storage is slow and the retrieval is hopeless, which it is when note attachments aren't searched, then that's a massive failure.

  • Like 4
Link to post
2 hours ago, TaskClone said:

  • Will it be over soon?  Sorta.  I suspect in 120 days, the worst will be over.  The features with broadest appeal and ease of implementation will be back.  Speed and syncing will be improved, but probably not finished or back to the "old days".  Most importantly, the loudest and most hurt by the changes will be gone.  This will allow greater focus on the new paying customers that can be brought in.

Interesting take - so you are saying that Evernote will benefit from some of their most passionate paying customers leaving the platform to one of the many other competing solutions, and that there is somehow a large number of “new”paying customers who will come in and ensure profitability?  Who do you see as these new customers?

Note taking and task apps are not a new and exciting industry - most users who are willing to pay anything for a solution are either using Evernote and feeling certain levels of pain from this recent debacle, or have used Evernote and left for various reasons.  I don’t see these users coming back any time soon unless Evernote is offering something truly remarkable, which v10 most definitely is not.  If a “win” is getting a product after 18 months that finally matches the previous product’s functionality, then Evernote is going to be in big trouble, in my opinion.

  • Like 3
Link to post
3 hours ago, luvmyc6 said:

Thanks for doing this - I upvoted it and encourage everyone to do the same. I have made similar requests in the past on the forums and via direct product feedback to Evernote, It just makes too much sense not to implement.

49 minutes ago, NorcalScott said:

 I don’t see these users coming back any time soon unless Evernote is offering something truly remarkable, which v10 most definitely is not.

I have no idea if this gambit will work out for Evernote, but there are two features on the road map that could bring in new paying users. Both have been mentioned on these forums but since they're not supposed to be public I will be vague.

The first one, probably coming early this year, I kind of envision as being designed to increase engagement with the product, not necessarily to directly convince a number of new people to try Evernote if they haven't considered it so far. Rather, this would make it more likely for occasional users to use EN more often. Basic users who engage with the product more are much more likely to consider upgrading to a paying subscription (and premium subscription holders who increase and / or maintain high levels of engagement are much less likely to drop the subscription).

The second feature, probably coming later in the year, maybe Q2 or mid-year, has the potential to both increase engagement and convince some brand new users to give Evernote a shot. I don't have any special insight and obviously there's a lot of work to do between now and then, so it really depends on how well they execute on the feature. I think the potential is there, however.

So, we'll see. For the first time in a long while I'm finding myself being cautiously optimistic for the future. Evernote doesn't meet my ideal needs right now, but I also haven't seen anything else in the marketplace which does, so I'm willing to hold on for now.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
8 hours ago, gazumped said:

They're doing an Elon and iterating their way through updates that add extra (code) engines to the basic frame,  and - I imagine fairly quickly - we should get pretty much the full range of the 'legacy' apps back.

Meantime I'm continuing to operate in my own little bubble without any disruption - because being tech-savvy I know NOT to be first with new tech,  and I killed all the automatic update functions on my various devices and apps before they were tempted to do anything silly.

I don't have much sympathy with anyone currently having issues (unless they're on iOS!!) because on most operating systems and devices there's a way either to dump the new app and go back to the old ones,  or to run the official Legacy app alongside the new.

But everyone seems to be struggling and demanding that Evernote fix the issues - which is exactly what they're busy doing anyway!  If you're not prepared for the hassle - just go back to the old app!!  Evernote will fix things - eventually.

As Grand Moff Tarkin once put it, you're far too trusting. Once you've concluded that v10 should have been presented as a preview/beta/work-in-progress instead of as "the new Evernote" you have to ask yourself, why was it released in that shape? The missing features people have complained about aren't bugs, they're design decisions. Ditto for the font choice limitations, etc. So why should we believe that the company will "fix things" when management has already given the green light to reduced functionality?

It seems to me there are three explanations for the premature v10 release: 1) management thought the product was "close enough" for most users (viz Small's statements on tags), 2) some idiot(s) thought adding features to a released product would be easy, or 3) v10 was pushed out for reasons unrelated to customer acceptance, such as being evidence the company was meeting milestones. I'm inclined to think it's a mix of all three, but none suggest that customers using the Legacy apps will see all the features they rely on appear in v10. On the contrary the company has declined to make explicit promises on how long the (already unsupported) Legacy version will be available or what specific features v10 will have when it's "finished".

I think the customer venting, er, feedback is useful should someone at the company actually pay attention to the posts. Given Small's shifting assessments of v10's meeting people's needs I suspect the feedback is being mostly ignored at some point in the chain of command, but one can hope. As to this particular forum discussion, I've learned a lot from the posts detailing how people are using Evernote and the experiences of people migrating to other software.

  • Like 2
Link to post
  • Level 5*
47 minutes ago, rts said:

It seems to me there are three explanations for the premature v10 releas

I would add a fourth.  The company did not really understand how their software was used by their paying customers.  

Side note, to have a tag saying of Accomplish Anything and to create such a productivity crippling release speaks volumes.  I apologize for the snarkiness 

  • Like 5
Link to post
4 hours ago, CalS said:

I would add a fourth.  The company did not really understand how their software was used by their paying customers. 

Exactly, I even doubt whether they really know all the features built in over the years in the different products by different developers...

  • Like 1
Link to post
  • Level 5*
8 hours ago, rts said:

The missing features people have complained about aren't bugs, they're design decisions.

I agree that apparently losing the Outlook clipper and Import Folders were (dumb) design decisions,  but Evernote have at least already -apparently- reconsidered Import Folders. 

I did see a fairly horrifying comment in another thread somewhere about another issue (there are so many I can't remember what) where an Evernote Employee - presumably a product manager - said something to the effect of "Oh I didn't think that feature was important,  so we dropped it..."

Scary that sort of decision should be a matter of relatively junior opinion,  without consultation;  but to be fair the PM also said that he'd refer the matter back to the development team for re-evaluation.

But how many design decisions are we talking about here?  IMHO the new app was stripped down like Musk's Starship to bare tanks and one engine for a test flight to make sure the whole system hung together.  Then (as has been said) Evernote were relying on their new,  super-fast development schedule to allow them to add the missing features - which they're still doing.  They may not have allowed for the number of bugs though...

Some decisions we might have expected - but maybe choices should have been offered to users for a vote first.  There was,  forinstance a continuing powerful lobby of users who demanded that tables laid out on their phones should look exactly the same - typeface and all - as when laid out on a desktop.

There's a long explanation in another thread on this,  but it boils down to: if you want free choice of fonts,  that can't happen.  If Evernote include their own limited (for the moment?) font package,  it becomes possible.  So congratulations font-happy users;  you got exactly what you asked for.  If it went back to a vote (why does everyone want another chance at a selection!) I don't know whether the layout party,  or the choice party would win.

In essence,  because we demanded the same app on all devices,  Evernote have delivered.  Sadly that means all apps have to operate on a level that will work on all devices;  and some of the 'specials' like the formerly Windows-only Import Folder might get short listed for being dropped...

Have you heard the one about a camel being a horse designed by users committee?

  • Haha 1
Link to post
18 hours ago, QFieldBoden said:

I have no doubt that there are good reasons for doing this. From an end user point of view when the product's primary function is storage and retrieval (a "second brain" I think it was called) if the storage is slow and the retrieval is hopeless, which it is when note attachments aren't searched, then that's a massive failure.

If it were true that retrieval were hopeless for a significant percentage of desired customers, that would be a massive failure. 

Slowness is not a failure.  In fact, it's often pre-planned.  With many new releases of software, developers include additional logging to track any potential issues.  Over time as these issues are discovered and corrected, the logging is removed.  Ideally this is imperceptible delay, but this is often a feature and not a bug.

None of us is really sure what percentage and which users are most upset about the changes, but it's big enough that they've had to acknowledge something.  Not sure that makes it a massive failure from the company's perspective.  Time will tell.

Since I own a company, I tend to take the company's perspective.  Customers are prone to hyperbole and "end of times" type reactions.  That's fine, but in listening to it, one has to apply a bit of perspective that someone in an emotional state might not be applying.

Link to post
1 minute ago, TaskClone said:

Since I own a company, I tend to take the company's perspective.  Customers are prone to hyperbole and "end of times" type reactions.  That's fine, but in listening to it, one has to apply a bit of perspective that someone in an emotional state might not be applying.

I for one am not in an emotional state, not in respect of Evernote at any rate, there are bigger issues these days. However, when I select and pay good money for a product that advertises a certain feature set I expect that feature set to remain available, unless I am told otherwise. I made my decision to use Evernote based on the features it offered at the time, and still advertises on it's website. If an "upgrade" is released, I don't expect to have to then "downgrade" to be able to continue to use the features I depend on and want.

If it was a car with air conditioning, sat nav, autopilot, airbags, automatic transmission and park assist fitted and I was offered an "upgrade" I'd not be happy if when I got it back after the upgrade I was left with air-con and nothing else I'd originally bought.

  • Like 2
Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now