Behind the Scenes: An Interview with Evernote CEO Ian Small

[Shane D. 1,826]

Hi All,

Who inspired this video series? What’s next for Evernote? Keep watching to find out.

So far in Evernote Behind the Scenes, CEO Ian Small has chatted with designers, engineers, and managers about the work they’re doing to make Evernote better. In this episode, I’ll be turning the tables and directing the questions to Ian.

We’ll cover some of the biggest questions I’ve received from the Evernote community, including what we’ve learned, what’s next for this series, and what the Evernote of the future looks like.

Subscribe to our channel to follow the journey, and join the conversation on the Evernote Forum!

 

[PinkElephant 8,996]

Thanks for sharing !

Some issues:

- Do not start to spend money on a PR agency. Just continue, and spend the money saved on engineers or support staff.

- Firefox is the last really alternative browser. They do a good job, you do a good job, and I hope the two of you will be usable together soon. Webclipper is working fine on my Firefox, so I hope the webclient will do as well.

- Tag organisation, or organisation in general: There used to be visual tools like Mohio map or Bubble Browser that helped by visualizing the content and structure of an EN database. Both are gone, or seem to be gone (BB is still on the Mac App Store, but it bombs when used. Support mails are not answered). An official tool like this from EN to make the database visual would be great !

Ah and yes: There is a sort of app store (more a Website with links to app providers pages) for apps connected to Evernote. It could need an overhaul, seems to be a little neglected ( https://appcenter.evernote.com/de/ ).

- We all (iOS users) hope that there will be a new client to make use of the power of iPadOS when released. More and more people are going iPad only, the pro-series is a very productive tool with tremendous horse power under the hood, but massively underused by apps like EN. I have all of my notes in offline notebooks on my Pro, but I can not even drag & drop content from one note to another. For a start, it would help to be able to open 2 EN sessions in split view, allowing inter-note operations between the 2 Windows. If this helps, make offline notebooks obligatory for this sort of use.

- Please Continue to ship when ready. A unfinished new product is of no help to anybody, it is worse than living with the existing one a little longer.

And if you want to use up these EN socks I have learned about in the article in the NYT, you could use them when going on camera 🧦

Best regards to you and the team !

 

[ObviousBob 140]

53 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

We all (iOS users) hope that there will be a new client to make use of the power of iPadOS when released

Isn't Safari on iOS 13 supposed to be a "desktop" browser - which would seem to mean that using Evernote Web on an iPad would work just fine. So maybe iPadOS can be the lowest priority of the various platforms.. 

[Lisa Norman 6]

I'll volunteer to beta test any Firefox version you want!

[DTLow 5,749]

1 minute ago, ObviousBob said:

using Evernote Web on an iPad would work just fine

I can use Evernote Web on my iPad (IOS12)

The UI suffers a little because of the smaller screen, but it is functional

[gazumped 12,213]

I hope the tag restructuring that Ian was talking about (there was a phrase to that effect anyway) is limited to ensuring that tags are available in the same way across all clients,  and not to some "improvements" in the theory and application of tags. 

In Windows Desktop I have cycled through various systems over several years until I now have a combination of notebooks,  tags and note titles that define my library of information quite nicely for me.  I'd be... unhappy.. if the nature of any of any of those items changed.  (Having said which,  it's high time tagging in Android was as simple and effective as tagging in Windows.)

And hey - while you're into tagging,  how about improving Note Linking so we can jump from note to note (and maybe from heading to heading) when browsing our data?

But I'm with @PinkElephant.  Please spend your cash on engineers,  not marketers;  and take the time you need to make sure the next iteration of the product is (reasonably) bullet-proof and fit for purpose!

[JMichaelTX 4,119]

5 hours ago, Shane D. said:

In this episode, I’ll be turning the tables and directing the questions to Ian.

@Ian Small, thank you so much for enduring the pain of "sticking needles in my eye" to be on camera and let us hear/see your thoughts.  You're doing a great job, and we really appreciate it.

Patience is something I've taken to a new level with Evernote.  Long before you appeared on the scene, I learned that I could NOT trust a new release of Evernote Mac.  So, I stayed with my current version until I could see no one was posing issues about the current version that would impact my critical workflow.  Thus, I stayed on EN Mac 6.11.1 for over a year, until finally I felt safe to upgrade to Ver 7.10, and now 7.11.

So, while there are a number of fixes and new features I'd love to have, I am more than willing to wait until you can get it right, and release a version with no material bugs.

Since I know you read every post here, I'd like to take this opportunity to let you know that the upgrades from EN Mac 6.11.1 to 7.10, and then to 7.11, were very painful, and both gave me a scare that I had lost all of my 20K+ Notes.  If you'd like more info on this, I'm sure you have my email address, and I more than welcome any/all follow-up from your and/or your staff on this.

Please keep up the good work, and the sharing of behind the scenes videos.

[faifaifai 16]

@Ian Small, thanks for being transparent to us (and being so sincere too). This is the first time in the past few years that I have a feeling that Evernote is moving to the right direction. 

Over the years I have made a few request here, and saw many other users' requests. Most of them are about styling glitches, web clipper issue, inconsistent UI across platforms. And most of the time we get minor patches and bug fixes here and there. 

 

But we all know it is not how it should be done. We all know that the note format and the editor have to be rebuilt from the ground up, so that the team won't be wasting time and effort, like whenever you want to add a new formatting function, you have to work over 5 platforms to get it done, and the note formatting is way too complicated to maintain by today's standard. It was really sad to see our beloved product withering not because the team was not working hard, but was working hard in the wrong direction. 

 

So glad to see the new unified editor coming. I am okay that we won't have new functions in the coming few months, and Evernote team works full throttle on the editor. 

 

And I am glad too that Evernote being transparent to us, so that we know we are waiting for something nice, unlike before we were making request here without any reply. Now we can give time to Evernote to polish the product, because we know the team is working on it. 

 

I am currently in the beta channel of iOS, Windows and Web platform, whenever the new editor is ready, throw it at me, and i am very delighted to give feedback. Thanks again for the Behind the Scene videos, and keep up the good work!

[PinkElephant 8,996]

On 7/3/2019 at 2:17 AM, ObviousBob said:

Isn't Safari on iOS 13 supposed to be a "desktop" browser - which would seem to mean that using Evernote Web on an iPad would work just fine. So maybe iPadOS can be the lowest priority of the various platforms.. 

„Thanks“ - maybe you join me on a train ride from my home town to Hamburg. On the 1hr ride, be assured we will loose internet connection at least 3 times, with gaps extending to more than 5 minutes . This means ANY internet connection, which includes the one of the train itself, that uses all 3 public networks available to make connection and share them via WiFi between the 3-400 active devices on the train, and all mobiles from LTE down to „Edge“. For the bigger part of the trip there will only be Edge, close to unusable for any sort of work and sync. 

Thus I have my stuff offline on my iPad Pro 10.5, which fits snuggishly on the little table mounted to the seat in front of me, with keyboard attached. EN is one of the iOS apps with a solid offline option, and it will sync all of my work when we reach the station, where good open WiFi is waiting for the login.

Happy editing on the web browser ...

[maartenvosselman 11]

Dear Evernote team,

Thank you Ian for being so transparant! 

I am a big Evernote user and also advocating it in my own company. Based on the latest developments and your video series I am a bit scared that collaboration is not a focus of Evernote. In our company we often work together in Notebooks/Notes and to be honest, this is not going flawless. I would really like to know how you guys see the future on collaboration within Evernote (working simultaneously in notes, communicate within Evernote)? Why did Evernote Chat disappear for instance in new Evernote for Web?

I am still hesitating to go for Evernote Business (for 15 users)... Could you please elaborate on this?

Thanks!

Best,

Maarten

[jefito 5,598]

Hey, shoutout to super-@Shane D., benevolent overlord, ringmaster and hall monitor of these forums! Thanks for being here, among whatever else you do behind the scenes. And that goes to point up what I really like about these videos: showing us the human faces behind Evernote in an accessible way. It's easy to think of an organization as a faceless entity, walled off from its users & clients. But I know that's wrong -- building software is a human endeavor, with all the attendant problems: personality clashes, egos, uncertainties and all, and getting a team to come together to produce something that's useful to many other humans -- millions in the case of Evernote -- is a pretty impressive thing. So seeing what Everfolks are up to, talking about why they make the design/development choices that they do, how they think about problems, that's all is interesting to me. So no feature suggestions here, no advice on how to run your company, no questions I need answers to. I'm a fan, and have been for 10+ years now. Something in the core concepts of Evernote resonated in me, and they're still there, and I'm glad that Evernote is still here too. Thanks for checking in with us.

[loriswave 14]

Hello,
I saw the last video (Ian's interview) where we talk about tag reorganization, so I tried the new Web app and opened the TAG section and I had a heart attack. Is this the new idea of reorganization?
My system is based on tags and specifically on the possibilities to have an edit a tree of tags. Please, not make a jump behind removing this.

I work on Windows and Android and even if the tag management is not perfect, it is very close to being it.

[TK0047 424]

Ian Small seems to be very genuine and transparent. It feels like he is not trying to act like he has all the answers or everything it great, he is really lowering his defenses and coming out as vulnerable as can be for a CEO which is such a rare characteristic lately.

Great job with these videos, it is really creating a synergy among the community and the developers in my opinion.

Thank you!

[ObviousBob 140]

17 hours ago, DTLow said:

I can use Evernote Web on my iPad (IOS12)

The UI suffers a little because of the smaller screen, but it is functional

I'm curious about this.. I'm now using the iOS 13 beta on my iPad. Using the "old" Evernote Web, I can't scroll past the length of the screen. Using the "new" Evernote web, things appear to be fine, but trying to edit is difficult at best, as I can't easily tap to place the cursor, which when it does appear, jumps around on its own. I don't have the new beta being talked about in the videos. So I'm curious which version you are having success with? Maybe iOS 13 broke it..

[mrmaceurope 2]

First I would like to thank @Ian Small and the team at EN for the open communication towards the EN community and the effort on improving EN for the future. 

Being a returning EN user, from OneNote, I'm glad and happy to see the improvements going on everywhere, on the web, (maybe in the backend) and updates for the fat clients... very positive... 

@Ian Small did mention on the interview that the TAG experience would be something which would be one of the next focus areas for the EN team... the effort in improving this experience would be spot on, and I would like to come forward with a suggest for a feature of the TAG management or virtual experience, but do not spent time on this in these first interactions of improving TAG management, but consider the suggestion for future releases or improvements. 

The suggestion would be "TAG's as TABS's" and by that I do not, not at all, mean that EN should implement the same either layout or approach as OneNote, but on the other hand, it would provide new users coming from OneNote, to easily adopt to EN. Further, by providing an option of showing TAGs in each notebooks as TABS on the sidebar would provide easy navigation and a good overview.

Looking forward to the next video from Ian and the EN team !! :) and would be happy to answer questions or participate in any EN beta or user experience and feedback program.

[snowbaked 1]

Great Video. Starting to feel Evernote actually exists again.

wonderful if the Apple Pencil can be used properly in the future so I can stop having to also using Apple Notes.

[Raeve 9]

Hello!

 

Thanks so much for continuing this series and for being open about the direction of the company and what is being worked on. I've been following these videos with interest. Evernote is a bit of an unusual beast on that it's original tagline was: "Remember Everything". And indeed, Evernote become more and more effective the more data one puts into it. But, to put that much data of one's life into a product/service requires a greater amount of trust in the product/service. Many of us trust EN as our online vault for spring all our most important paperwork including taxes, banking and other financial information, receipts, paystubs, bills, healthcare records and bills, that proverbial dream novel, everyday task lists and so much more. I'm in the process of "going all in" with EN and adding years of paper files to the EN vault. Thanks largely to these videos, I'm finally feeling comfortable enough to go through with adding so much more to EN.

I also want to reiterate my support for what PinkElephant stayed about the new iPadOS and desperately needing more desktop class features for it. I've completely stopped using my laptop and gone over to using the iPad Pro as my only device but the EN experience is really lacking in what we're able to do. Things like merging notes, copying attachments from one not to another, seeing attachment previews (at least for PDF and jpg) are all basic required features that are non-existant. I really hope to at this improved in the future.

I do have one question which I'm hoping someone here can elaborate on. I've done multiple internet searches and was unable to get an answer. At around 8:08 in the video, Shane asks Ian if he likes check boxes or checklists. Ian responds that he used to use check boxes as there was no alternative but now that checklists have been introduced in the last few months, he's a total convert. Can Simone please elaborate on this? The check box implementation is one of the biggest sticking points (frustrations/problems) I have with EN and I'd love to try out the new checklists feature, regardless of whether I have to use a beta product to do so. Could anyone over share more about this and the improvements that come with the new checklists feature as well as how I can start trying them out? That would help so much.

Thanks Ian and Shane for taking the time to make this video and share more of what EN is working on.

 

PS Another massive vote for Firefox compatibility from me! I switched back to FF from Chrome due to many concerns and issues about the latter's info/data harvesting and lack of privacy, bloated memory hogging slowdowns, and going in directions that were against user benefits but that profits the company, to name just a few. Firefox puts privacy and user experience first with speed a close second and the browser syncs brilliantly across the different OSs. Really looking forward to having EN work with FF. Thanks for taking the time to work on this when that browser is still the minority. That means a lot.

[DTLow 5,749]

1 hour ago, Raeve said:

At around 8:08 in the video, Shane asks Ian if he likes check boxes or checklists. Ian responds that he used to use check boxes as there was no alternative but now that checklists have been introduced in the last few months, he's a total convert.

@Shane D.   This was your question.  Can you provide details

>>The check box implementation is one of the biggest sticking points (frustrations/problems) I have with EN 

Not clear what your checkbox issue is.

I use checkboxes for my task-list
My process is to use individual task notes instead of a general to-do list
I generate a task-list using a saved search; a list of notes
Using the copy links feature, I paste the task-list into my daily journal note as a checklist

[s2sailor 2,505]

1 hour ago, Raeve said:

I do have one question which I'm hoping someone here can elaborate on. I've done multiple internet searches and was unable to get an answer. At around 8:08 in the video, Shane asks Ian if he likes check boxes or checklists.

This is discussed in the earlier editor video.  Checklists will provide some additional functionality over the original checkbox.  It looks like both will be offered in the new editor.  I don't think the checklist has been rolled out into anything that we have access to yet, at least I haven't seen it.

[CalS 5,311]

Checklist is a part of the web editor Beta best I can tell.  There is an indentation difference and a how they are displayed upon completion difference.  Picture helps I think, I compressed it based upon the large font size in the beta.  Horses for courses.

[gustavgi 311]

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 2:41 AM, gazumped said:

I hope the tag restructuring that Ian was talking about (there was a phrase to that effect anyway) is limited to ensuring that tags are available in the same way across all clients,  and not to some "improvements" in the theory and application of tags. 

In Windows Desktop I have cycled through various systems over several years until I now have a combination of notebooks,  tags and note titles that define my library of information quite nicely for me.  I'd be... unhappy.. if the nature of any of any of those items changed.  (Having said which,  it's high time tagging in Android was as simple and effective as tagging in Windows.)

 

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 3:20 PM, loriswave said:

Hello,
I saw the last video (Ian's interview) where we talk about tag reorganization, so I tried the new Web app and opened the TAG section and I had a heart attack. Is this the new idea of reorganization?
My system is based on tags and specifically on the possibilities to have an edit a tree of tags. Please, not make a jump behind removing this.

I work on Windows and Android and even if the tag management is not perfect, it is very close to being it.

I strongly agree with this as well. The current tag system and the Windows left panel tag list, together with the option of also using the Tag view in the right window and dragging and dropping in between the two is the most productive and resource effective way of working with tags. I also rely heavily on the "scroll left panel item into view when the item is selected"-feature in options. I pray before every major update that no one messes with this on Windows.

But if the idea is to bring the best of this also into other client and implementing them in a way that would be the best fit for that system, I am of course all for that!

And, like @PinkElephant mentioned, it would also be great if some additional visual tag/note functions based on the idea of Mohio map or Bubble browser etc. were implemented. I also think the potential of the current Context feature is criminally underused when it is now limited to only a couple of notes. It would also be great if it suggested related tags and gave some type of explanation why the notes are suggested.

[s2sailor 2,505]

1 hour ago, CalS said:

Checklist is a part of the web editor Beta best I can tell. 

Hmmm ... account summary states I'm using the Evernote Web Beta, but this is what I see.

[PinkElephant 8,996]

Seems you are on the „safe beta“ program 😂

[Lisa Norman 6]

15 minutes ago, s2sailor said:

Hmmm ... account summary states I'm using the Evernote Web Beta, but this is what I see.

 

 

That's not the one with the cool checklist...

 

[s2sailor 2,505]

1 minute ago, Lisa Norman said:

That's not the one with the cool checklist...

 

Correct, how do I get that?  I believe I have the beta version loaded but am not seeing that.

[s2sailor 2,505]

21 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

Seems you are on the „safe beta“ program 😂

They don't want me to hurt myself I guess ... 🤨

Seems to me there was a button to enable the beta editor somewhere but I'm not seeing it now ... or maybe I'm thinking of the Windows preview.  

[Lisa Norman 6]

@s2sailor -- are you using Chrome?

 

[Lisa Norman 6]

BTW -- the new beta is definitely worth the effort to get. I'm very happy with it. I'd initially wanted in on the beta, then backed out when I realized it was chrome only. After I saw the markup options for headings/paragraphs (a BIG feature for me), I switched back and have been using it extensively. It is definitely going the right way. Makes me so happy for Evernote's future.

[s2sailor 2,505]

11 minutes ago, Lisa Norman said:

@s2sailor -- are you using Chrome?

 

I've tried on Brave, Safari and Chrome.

[Lisa Norman 6]

I think Chrome is the only place you would see it.

[s2sailor 2,505]

I get what I posted earlier on both Chrome and Brave.  I have problems running it on Safari so can't see what the editor presents there.

[Lisa Norman 6]

2 minutes ago, s2sailor said:

I get what I posted earlier on both Chrome and Brave.  I have problems running it on Safari so can't see what the editor presents there.

What does it say in your lower right hand corner? There is also a tiny little arrow on that...do you have it?

[s2sailor 2,505]

2 minutes ago, Lisa Norman said:

What does it say in your lower right hand corner? There is also a tiny little arrow on that...do you have it?

That is the button that I mentioned that I've seen earlier (but it may have been on the Windows preview and not the Web beta where I saw it), but I no longer see it.  I have nothing in the lower right corner.

[Lisa Norman 6]

I suggest you request access to the beta program again, or find your original invitation and click the link again, maybe? Makes me think it got turned off in your browser somehow. Ask the beta coordinator to help you get back in. SO worth it.

[CalS 5,311]

1 hour ago, s2sailor said:

Hmmm ... account summary states I'm using the Evernote Web Beta, but this is what I see.

Beta editor and beta web, Chrome on Windows and Safari.

[s2sailor 2,505]

9 minutes ago, CalS said:

Beta editor and beta web, Chrome on Windows and Safari.

Understood, but still not seeing it.  I went ahead and reinstalled the Windows preview and do see the editor option there, but cannot get it to show up on the web beta ... weird.

[ObviousBob 140]

The "Evernote Web Beta" isn't really new, and everyone has access. I think it was released almost a year ago.

The new Beta is invitation only. That is the one with the tool bar that starts with "Normal Text" and "Sans Serif" and has the button in the lower right corner. This is what is featured in the videos we are all chattering about.

Things are a bit confusing with two "betas" on the web.

[s2sailor 2,505]

18 minutes ago, ObviousBob said:

Things are a bit confusing with two "betas" on the web.

That is true and probably the issue.  The web beta invitation came around the same time as the Windows preview.  I thought I signed up for both but maybe not.  I seldom use the web client and only recently loaded it to check it out.  It was definitely new in appearance and it was identified as beta so thought I had the latest.

[gazumped 12,213]

1 hour ago, ObviousBob said:

Things are a bit confusing with two "betas" on the web.

Yup.  Same t-shirt here.  I didn't realise there was another version of Web Beta out there either...  

[faifaifai 16]

Anybody knows how to sign up (if any) for the "new" beta program? For people who are okay to take the risk and delighted to feedback. 

I am in beta program of iOS, Windows and Web, but seems there is another channel (maybe nightly build?) of beta out there 

[Ian Small 215]

Hi all -

First, Shane's question relates to the new "checklist" feature which was demonstrated in the second Behind the Scenes video on the new note editor.  (Hint: if you haven't seen that video, go watch it now, none of this thread will make sense otherwise!  I'll wait until you're done.)  Internally, everyone at Evernote can participate in testing by "dogfooding" new builds, so we've all had access to the checklist feature for a while now as our development and design teams work out the kinks in that and other parts of the new Note Editor.  So for Shane, it was a reasonable followup question to ask me about one of the features we demonstrated in an earlier BTS video - a feature which created a lot of response from the community.

Second, to try to help sort out the apparent confusion around "betas":  

• The Evernote web beta - what I tend to refer to in the videos as the "modern web experience" - is broadly available to any Evernote user and has been in place for about a year now.  We still label this build beta because we do not view it yet as feature complete - there are a few key features missing before we would consider it our GA web experience.  Nonetheless, as you've seen in a number of the videos, the Evernote web beta is what we are using as  the basis for our forward-looking web work.
• A preview release of the new note editor has been available by invitation only (and under NDA, which is why you haven't heard about it broadly outside of the relevant Behind the Scenes video) to a relatively small audience for the last several months.  Over that period, we've been collecting feedback and modifying our implementation in response to that feedback, working on bugs, and converging on performance levels that we are happy with, all while continuing to work through the feature punch list which we believe (based on the feedback we have received to date) will constitute a complete version.
• At this point, the new note editor has been released as an optional beta to a small % of users who are using our modern web experience (the Evernote web beta).  So, as some posts have commented above (and shown screenshots), if you are using the Evernote web beta, you may have access to the note editor beta in the bottom right corner of the window.
• Early versions of the new note editor have also been bundled into preview releases of an early Windows client, released to a very small number of users by invitation only (and also under NDA).

At this point, there is no other way to get access to the new note editor.  We are not looking for individuals to sign up to the note editor beta at this point.  We have transitioned from small numbers of individual users invited one-by-one to the preview into small percentages of the entire Evernote web user population being given access to the beta.  We still have a lot of work to go for the new note editor to be ready for broad release; we appreciate your patience while we continue to work on bugs, performance, and remaining functionality.

Third, you can expect *more* betas, not less.  One of the things I've been pretty consistent about in our communications is that we're adopting a posture of testing everything we're working on - from very early stages where we test design mockups with individual users, through to very early prototype builds that we test under NDA on an invitation-only basis (thanks to all of you who have been participating and helping in one or more of those), through to phased beta rollouts to larger segments of our audience - all of which happens before we go GA on a particular component.  We have restructured the way in which we do development at Evernote so that multiple subsections within the product can be driven independently, which in turn means that we can beta different "parts" of the product independently.  Our ability to beta subsections of any build independently of the rest is something that you will see more of in the future.  It's part of what we need to be able to do in order for Evernote to return to innovation at speed.

Fourth, with respect to tags, my Spidey-sense detects the beginning of a small-scale twister as members of the community, with the best of intentions, take two sentences I said in a video and start to extrapolate what they could possibly mean.  If there is an actual twister, it's always wise to take cover.  But at the same time, we should probably try to avoid creating man-made twisters when it's not really necessary.

In order to attempt to defuse this twister mid-formation, let me re-emphasize what I said on the video:  (1) tagging is super important to a big chunk of our users (2) tagging is supported in wildly varying ways across different devices (just try Android vs. iOS, if you don't believe me) and (3) we'd like to take the best of tagging from across various devices and make a more consistent, coherent tagging interface across all devices in the Evernote family.  What I specifically didn't say:  that we were somehow going to rework the theory of tags.  No.  Not happening.

Fifth, one more observation that I suspect is generally applicable beyond this particular thread:  if I say that one of the things we're going to focus on in an *upcoming* episode of Behind the Scenes is topic X, and that episode hasn't aired yet, it's probably a safe bet that whatever you can see in a production version of Evernote you have downloaded today regarding topic X is probably *not* representative of what we're going to talk about.  After all, we wouldn't need a Behind the Scenes video series for that... we'd just point you at the software.

Hope all that is helpful.  I'm going to go back to lurking now, and to lighting off fireworks.  To those of you reading this from the US, happy holidays!

ian

[PinkElephant 8,996]

Thanks again for sharing. I specially liked the clear statement here about tags: Straighten and improve the experience over devices, but not twisting the concept.

Now off to the fireworks !

[CalS 5,311]

9 hours ago, Ian Small said:

The Evernote web beta - what I tend to refer to in the videos as the "modern web experience" - is broadly available to any Evernote user and has been in place for about a year now.  We still label this build beta because we do not view it yet as feature complete - there are a few key features missing before we would consider it our GA web experience

I think EN does itself a disservice with this strategy.  Participating in these forums I have witnessed this practice create disaffected, confused users in that they can't accomplish something due to a lack of some otherwise standard functionality, not realizing the functionality didn't exist in the beta.  A warning of some sort as to there are missing capabilities so use the current version might alleviate some of that confusion.  The user is left to their own devices without this forum, not customer friendly, in my view anyway.

9 hours ago, Ian Small said:

We have restructured the way in which we do development at Evernote so that multiple subsections within the product can be driven independently, which in turn means that we can beta different "parts" of the product independently. 

This makes a lot of sense.  This will no doubt work better when the apps are at full function and different elements in one section can be tested with full feature in others.  In the meantime it is a bit difficult to fully test something when you can't simulate a complete use case.  That and it's a bit of whack a mole when it's not clear as to what feature/function is included in the beta.  So a broad template might help, not dates, just the stuff that is and is not included.  Again, particularly as EN ramps up to oneness.  Personally, easier for me to beta something that lets me do what I need to do.  Otherwise it is extra work.

This is meant to be constructive feedback, no snark intended if any taken.  And, I do like most of what is going on, not so sure about some of the new UI, but that's a topic for another day.  

[s2sailor 2,505]

45 minutes ago, CalS said:

A warning of some sort as to there are missing capabilities so use the current version might alleviate some of that confusion.  The user is left to their own devices without this forum, not customer friendly, in my view anyway.

Or, to add to this, please list specifically what in the beta you would like reviewed, otherwise it sometimes just turns into find the missing features.

[gazumped 12,213]

8 hours ago, Ian Small said:

What I specifically didn't say:

Thanks for the clarification and reassurance.  Not that we nitpick through everything that's seen and said by Evernote (much) but having a clear statement avoids any possible misunderstandings.  It's great to have some down-to-earth explanations of what's being considered for the future,  and you and Shane make a good double-act,  pins and eyes notwithstanding.  Please keep going the way you are!

[Ian Small 215]

3 hours ago, CalS said:

I think EN does itself a disservice with this strategy.  Participating in these forums I have witnessed this practice create disaffected, confused users in that they can't accomplish something due to a lack of some otherwise standard functionality, not realizing the functionality didn't exist in the beta.  A warning of some sort as to there are missing capabilities so use the current version might alleviate some of that confusion.  The user is left to their own devices without this forum, not customer friendly, in my view anyway.

Fair feedback.  As we go forward, we will try to do better at being explicit at messaging some of this.  There are some challenges to this, of course:

• Sometimes, it's the feedback we get in the preview or beta that tells us what features need to be prioritized and implemented (either from our punch list, or features which were on the bubble, or revisions/extensions/modifications to what we've already shipped).  We learn through the preview and beta process; there are multiple concrete examples of this happening already with the new note editor.
• We all use different parts of Evernote so generally warning people off a preview or beta version because there are missing capabilities ("there are missing capabilities so use the current version") is hard to do, and misleading - because for user A there may be no missing capabilities at all, and for user B there may be huge gaps.  User A gets warned away and misses out on an improved version.  User B doesn't try it and give us feedback we may need.
• In running the preview or beta programs, in an audience the scale of Evernote's, we have an (understandably) large range in software knowledge amongst our user base.  Putting a bounding box around a preview or beta in language everybody understands can be challenging.  For instance, during the editor preview, we had no shortage of feedback about non-editor issues.
• And finally, if we have a robust, bug-free implementation that may still be missing some key features, from the standpoint of a new user - it is "complete".  Because they are not missing the capability they never used.  For obvious reasons, we'd like to get those new users on to the newer versions.

None of this takes away from some underlying truths in your feedback.  Independent of this thread, we have already been thinking about ways we can improve our beta and preview programs, because we know we have work to do to improve in this area.

Thanks!
ian

[Lisa Norman 6]

I'm sure my early feedback contributed to some of the confusion. I made two errors: Not realizing that there were two beta options (or more) and also not realizing that since y'all were talking about a beta feature in the video that this feature was now beyond the NDA stage.

FWIW, I love that you've left the option to be pro checklists AND pro checkboxes. That is one of the signs that you are listening and respectful that we all use this software differently.

As a software developer who has been in the industry for many years, I appreciate the value of beta testing. As a user, I'm grateful.

The one thing that I've seen in this latest approach by Evernote that makes me extremely happy is that you are listening to your customers. Features that I asked for years ago and was told, "nope, not interested, not listening to you" are now not only being listened to, but they're coming to life. I literally cheered when I saw one of them on a video. I can't wait to see what else you are doing. Converting to one standard interface across all of the products is long overdue and very exciting.

Thanks for explaining why FireFox got put on the back burner. Makes perfect sense.

I rely on Evernote for my business. It replaced another software that is no longer available, so I understand the fear of losing mission critical software support. I've been increasingly encouraged by the direction Evernote is going. And while the super-secret beta may not be ready for public release, it encourages me in knowing that Evernote is there for us. And from what I've seen, there's no worries about the tags. I don't see them cutting any mission critical functionality, but rather addressing lack and fixing problems.

I love these videos, because they give me hope. The transparency of the entire team has been a breath of encouragement.

Ian, we hear you about your discomfort on camera. Your openness and willingness to go outside your comfort zone to make us feel more comfortable are appreciated.

[CalS 5,311]

3 hours ago, Ian Small said:

There are some challenges to this, of course:

Hey never said it would be easy! 

Get it that EN does not want to accidentally scare anyone away from using the product.  I was not as clear as I could have been.  I was referring more to Newbies who either opt into EN and then can't find features they expect to be there. 

1. To some extent it's not clear that it is a less function than where you were version, let alone a Beta.  The message in the account drop down is Switch to the new Evernote Web, the return is Switch to older version of Evernote.  So anything not in new stands a chance of causing confusion.    So yeah, messaging is a pain for gradually transitioning the web platform.
2. Previews are a different kettle of fish.  Controlled user group and the rules as laid out by EN are a not full function beta.  Expectations are set.
3. Betas work fine for the current desktops since the beta is not deprecated per se in those environments.  And they are clearly Betas, you have to opt in.

Okay I will stop now, this horse is dead, apologies for dragging on, just wanted to be sure I was clear. 

Thanks for listening.

[s2sailor 2,505]

4 hours ago, Ian Small said:

Independent of this thread, we have already been thinking about ways we can improve our beta and preview programs, because we know we have work to do to improve in this area.

As part of this please consider having the team review the preview survey questions.  You will receive more effective feedback if these are improved.  My favorite: on a scale of 0 to 10 how likely are you to continue using the beta at the end of the trial period (or something similar).  I always answer 0.  The windows preview was very feature incomplete and offered no advantages over the current client.  Anyone who responded with a high number or said they loved it has very low expectations for the app, and I would hate for EN to get the wrong impression from that feedback.

[Bill Myers 496]

On 7/5/2019 at 1:29 PM, Ian Small said:

Independent of this thread, we have already been thinking about ways we can improve our beta and preview programs, because we know we have work to do to improve in this area.

Hi, @Ian Small. I was one of the people who complained pretty loudly about this one the forum subsection for the preview I was invited to test. I understand there's no perfect way to communicate with customers about this, but simply saying "here's an experimental preview -- do you like it?" wasn't good enough. I had no idea what I was looking at or what kind of feedback to provide.

From what I've read in this thread and one other, part of the reason behind letting customers view a feature-incomplete experimental preview is to gauge what features to prioritize based on user feedback. So... it sounds like some of my feedback was useful -- but it would have been nice to understand that upfront.

Now that I have a better understanding of the concept of the "experimental preview" I'd welcome the chance to participate in future ones.

I'd also like to say I find the way you're communicating with customers is refreshing. I had been considering jumping off the Evernote ship. When you came onboard and acknowledged that Evernote's foundations needed work and that there were unacceptable quality problems with the product, I thought, "It sounds like this guy really gets it." Everything I've seen since then is reinforcing that belief. I've been increasing my usage of and reliance on Evernote because you're making me feel confident about the company and the product. Keep heading in this direction, and I will gladly remain a paying customer.

[Trebor68 39]

Wow, I didn't even know you had a behind the scenes playlist! Hats off to Ian and the team for doing that! I have been in the process of comparing Evernote to other tools. It felt to me for so many years like Evernote was stagnant and that there wasn't any innovation happening at all. The videos are helping me to see that you are actually looking at the full UX! I have a background in iOS development, Web Development from years ago (WebObjects if you've ever heard of it!) and now at work I'm learning to work with Docker/OCI containers and k8s. I'm working on a small scale. I can't imagine what it's like for you all to transform your operations from the older technologies to the modern platforms! I really hope that what I'm seeing is partially a result of you moving to more of a DevOps environment. I truly believe you all will benefit from being able to deploy at will constantly. 

 

If you need a more advanced user, I'm fine digging into my Mac and grabbing logs. Hit endpoints with MacPaw for REST apis, etc if you need me to test those out. 

 

One thing I'd love to see, for us geeks, is an overall view of your development process. Something you might give at a developer conference for example. 

 

I hope you all are staying healthy and safe!