Why Evernote refuses to implement Multi-Level Notebook ?

[I'll pay for MultiLevel NB 4]

Can someone from Evernote company explain why do you refuse to implement  multi-level notebook (more than 2 level)?

• This feature is requested since the early days of Evernote
• If tags were a valid an option  nobody asked for this feature
• Implementing multi-level notebook it's not difficult.
• The multi-level notebook is a necessity for "hard" users who have tens or hundreds noteboks, so you can sell it as premium feature.
• Even you don't agree with my opinion why don't create a pool asking users if they want this feature ?
• Tag based organization it's not so easy for some users:

 

So i finish as i started: Why don't you  implement multi-level notebooks ?

[DTLow 5,736]

Yes, we really need another discussion on multi-level notebooks.

Evernote generally doesn't comment on these questions.

>>Implementing multi-level notebook it's not difficult.

Please provide details on how this would be done?

1. A model is the parent-child relationship implemented for tags; adding a parent field to the tag record.
2.  A single level (Stacks) was implemented by adding a text field to the notebook record.
3. Also a change is required to the UI to provide use of this feature.

Any such work would require funding.  
It's a fact that that the majority of users are unwilling to pay for this product.

[I'll pay for MultiLevel NB 4]

"Oh great, another discussion on multi-level notebooks." Your comment it's the proof that a lot users are asking for this feature.

Just for the record i'm not asking the feature... i just want to know why Evernote refuse to listen the users....

"Evernote generally doesn't comment on these questions. " - Yes i know... they even block comments on the blog posts...

"Please provide details on how this would be done?"

Right click Over notebook name->Create Sub-note. It's too hard for you to imagine this ?

I can also provide you a data model to implement a mult-level hierarchy.

[jefito 5,589]

55 minutes ago, I'll pay for MultiLevel NB said:

Just for the record i'm not asking the feature... i just want to know why Evernote refuse to listen the users....

Well, it's clear that they listen, but that's not the same thing as 'obey'. In the past, they just suggested people to use tags: you can go to the original request (https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/96180-nesting-multiple-notebooks-creating-sub-notebooks/) and read all about it, and add your vote there if you want it. Or not. 

Who knows, though, maybe they will eventually. It just doesn't seem that high on their priority list, however.

57 minutes ago, I'll pay for MultiLevel NB said:

"Evernote generally doesn't comment on these questions. " - Yes i know... they even block comments on the blog posts...

I doubt that very much. They haven't  blocked forum commentary on it in the 10 years I've been around (see above link). And yes, in that link, there is Evernote commentary.

1 hour ago, I'll pay for MultiLevel NB said:

I can also provide you a data model to implement a mult-level hierarchy.

Gosh, do you think Evernote doesn't understand multi-level hierarchies? Oh wait, they do... tags, cough, cough...

 

[DTLow 5,736]

2 hours ago, I'll pay for MultiLevel NB said:

I can also provide you a data model to implement a mult-level hierarchy.

I'm interested in your ideas on the data model

>>Right click Over notebook name->Create Sub-note. It's too hard for you to imagine this ?

That doesn't seem difficult.

More work will be required to store the data.  Also additional UI changes to view and use the sub-notebooks

[vbiondi 3]

I want multi level options...cough cough

I don't like tags...waste of time for my purposes...cough cough

[jefito 5,589]

On 6/2/2019 at 2:19 PM, vbiondi said:

I want multi level options...cough cough

I don't like tags...waste of time for my purposes...cough cough

So go and add your vote to the actual ongoing feature request here: 

 

 

[DTLow 5,736]

On 6/2/2019 at 11:19 AM, vbiondi said:

I want multi level options...cough cough

I don't like tags...waste of time for my purposes...cough cough

Evernote implemented Stacks for notebooks; this provides two levels...cough cough

Notebooks and Tags are useful tools for the control and organization of my data
I like the unlimited levels in Tags ...cough cough

[dbvirago 502]

I've always been a folder guy, but don't really care with Evernote as their search functionality is so good, it's not relevant to me. I can find anything I want in seconds, nested, tagged or otherwise. It's one of the standout features of EN.

The main reason I don't want them nesting deeper is unless they change the entire structure of their database, which isn't likely, stacks are virtual. So in looking at other apps, when you port over your data, you have individual folders with no structure at all. 

[DTLow 5,736]

19 minutes ago, dbvirago said:

So in looking at other apps, when you port over your data, you have individual folders with no structure at all. 

It's your choice to use a single level, or multiple levels.

Please allow the rest of us to have a choice.  
Some of us our concerned with how to best organize our data.

Some our concerned with the name.  It must be called ******.  Any other name is unacceptable.

>>unless they change the entire structure of their database, which isn't likely

It's a simple database change.  Updating the UI is a killer.

>>stacks are virtual

All the hierarchy structure is virtual.  The computer has no real folders.

 

[Scott T. 662]

Quote

Implementing multi-level notebook it's not difficult.

Quote

It's a simple database change

Unfortunately, based on our current architecture and database design, it's NOT an easy change. It comes down to entity relationships (parent-child). Adding multiple levels of notebook nesting in the current architecture is just not doable. We've made certain consolations like Stacks or Spaces (for business customers), but these are basically giving you one additional level via a new entity type (vs. entities being able to relate to entities of the same type). 

We're currently actively rearchitecting a lot of the system. Changes in the system should allow for more flexibility in the future around entity relationships. I can't speak to any specific initiatives to allow for multiple levels of notebooks, but it should theoretically become easier in the future once we've completed our current work.

[MM_SAT 2]

One Note does have this feature.  I would imagine that multilevel filing/notebooks would be the foundation of any good note-taking system.  But maybe it is just me. 

I have been using ONENOTE for about 4 years and I thought I would try Evernote for a year and I did not even consider that Evernote would not be using a multilevel filing/notebook system.

By design most (not all- but most) who use evernote are on the upper end of tech-abilities  / non-paperness preferences.  Again maybe it is just me, but it would seem that those who are the target audience for Evernote would be interested in a multilevel filing system. 

Today will be my last day using my year-long subscription for anything other than to-do list and fairly insignificant misc notes that do not require a filing system until this feature is available. I am optimistic that it will become available because innovation would require it.  However, Innovation required it yester-year.  Catch up to innovation requires it today. 

[gazumped 11,664]

On 8/23/2019 at 5:18 PM, MM_SAT said:

I am optimistic that it will become available because innovation would require it. 

I don't see that multi-level notebooks are an 'innovation' - they're likely to be an accommodation (if they ever happen) for a specific customer base.  Evernote managed to struggle up to 225M users.  That's 75% or so of the population of the US,  though they're spread around the world.  I don't think they all can be high-end computer users and/ or paperless advocates.  It's been said many times - if a hierarchy is what you need,  then Evernote is not currently what you need.  If you can work around the issue,  there are lots of suggestions in these pages. 

[DTLow 5,736]

On 8/23/2019 at 9:18 AM, MM_SAT said:

... it would seem that those who are the target audience for Evernote would be interested in a multilevel filing system. 

From day one, Evernote has delivered an alternative to the legacy "multilevel filing system" (folders/sub-folders)

Evernote provides two fields; notebook & tags.  Tags incorporate a parent/child hierarchy for unlimited levels

Users who are unable to work with this paradigm, should be using a different product

[Athena13 12]

On 8/26/2019 at 3:14 PM, DTLow said:

From day one, Evernote has delivered an alternative to the legacy "multilevel filing system" (folders/sub-folders)

Evernote provides two fields; notebook & tags.  Tags incorporate a parent/child hierarchy for unlimited levels

Users are unable to work with this paradigm, and should be using a different product

Your last sentence, which I assume meant to be that users "who" are unable to work with this paradigm...?

Assuming that is the case, this raises an issue or two that I see all over these boards, and, to some meaningful extent, in the EN helpbase: there seems to be a presumption of

• a level of technical competence that is wildly unrepresentative of even those interested in technical solutions to personal knowledge management, much less the average person out there looking for a good way to keep track of things.  In the universe that is non-coders/non-developers, I am probably in the top couple of percent in tech comfort and competence.  But so many of the workarounds described on this board, and running one's own scripts, etc., are simply not reasonable to expect of a broad base of users.  And the assumption that it is, or should be, will necessarily alienate users and potential users.
• comfort with change and flexibility in terminology.  Again, I'm pretty good with this, but the formal help from EN help resources, as well as the conversations here ("EN doesn't do "folders"; we use notebooks.  Well, guess what?  For the average end-user, they function in the same way.  So it's pretty rude to be snide about it.  And it would be to EN's advantage to have materials out there that explain how things that may appear identical aren't, and vice-versa.  No reason to be afraid of diluting the nomenclature by describing its more familiar analog.  Another example is the information available to a new user about how tabs function.  Once I figured out a concept for them that worked for me (3-dimensional organization is how I view a system like this in which tags are at least as powerful (if not more) as more traditionally styled organizational methodologies.  And YES, most people in the world are not so familiar with tags and good protocols for using them as the user base that haunts these discussion boards or that creates EN, it is clear.  And even to me, seeing the apparently manual sorts and searches by users here that are clearly made outside the EN-offered UI is rather like receiving an answer written in the Cyrillic alphabet.

This may not be the appropriate place to raise these points (interestingly, these Discussion Boards are not super-well organized).  They are larger than specific functionality or user experiences, but they go a long way to making EN off-putting to many - more than you might think.  A little less "this is for people like us" - filling out the help section, not being afraid to explain the unknown in relation or contrast to the known, and answering questions to people clearly new or not highly technical or willing or able to put in the hours and days and weeks to acquire a working familiarity with the non-basic fundamentals of how tech behaves, in plain English, not semi-jargon, would benefit both EN and its users/potential users.

 

[DTLow 5,736]

18 hours ago, Athena13 said:

"EN doesn't do "folders"; we use notebooks.  Well, guess what?  For the average end-user, they function in the same way. 

Evernote uses notebooks and tags; these are two fields in the note metadata
There are some functional differences to folders
but users can emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar (screenshot from my Mac )

>>Your last sentence, which I assume meant to be that users "who" are unable ...

Thanks, I made the correction

 

edit: 

Metadata describes other data, in this case data about the note in Evernote
 It can be stored separately from the note contents; usually in a database
 The note metadata includes the following fields

• title (text) : The note's title.
• creation date (date) : The note's creation date.
• modification date (date) : The note's last modification date.
• subject date (date or missing value) : The date associated with the note's content.
• source URL (text or missing value) : The note's source URL.
• latitude (real or missing value)
• longitude (real or missing value)
• altitude (real or missing value)
• tags: The tags assigned to this note.
• notebook: The notebook assigned to this note.
• note link (text, r/o) : A URL specifying this note. NOTE: if this note is in a synchronized notebook but has not yet been synchronized itself, the result will be nil.
• reminder time (date or missing value) : The reminder time for the note.
• reminder done time (date or missing value) : The time the reminder for the note was marked completed.
• reminder order (date or missing value) : The reminder order time for the note. When not empty, this is what indicates the note has a reminder.

[gazumped 11,664]

4 hours ago, Athena13 said:

A little less "this is for people like us" - filling out the help section, not being afraid to explain the unknown in relation or contrast to the known, and answering questions to people clearly new or not highly technical or willing or able to put in the hours and days and weeks to acquire a working familiarity with the non-basic fundamentals of how tech behaves, in plain English, not semi-jargon, would benefit both EN and its users/potential users.

...You are aware these user forums are -mainly- supported by other users in their own time, right?  It's largely a volunteer operation,  not company funded. 

As a subscriber you can request assistance from the Support team for any apparent issues - https://help.evernote.com/hc/requests/new - and view a slew of helpful videos on You tube: https://www.youtube.com/user/EvernoteVideos or read about various topics on the Help & Learning page - https://help.evernote.com/hc/en-us

Trying to use an app without putting in a little research is like trying to drive without taking lessons.  Most things are pretty obvious,  but some things take practice.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,956]

Well.... I think @Athena13 has a fair point or two here. I consider myself a "power user" of several pieces of Windows and Android software, though I'm not a programmer. I could (and probably should, and one day likely will) learn the precise and rather arcane search grammar that some folks here employ on a daily basis to organize their use of Evernote. I've used script-like TSR keystroke playback software (a long time ago, hence "TSR"). But I'd rather find simpler ways of interacting with my Evernote data, and I sure wouldn't expect someone who's just trying to get a little work/hobbying/shopping done to jump through such hoops.

Generally, though, I think the most frequent helpers here are sensitive to the varying levels of technical skill and interest of people who post questions. Tags and stacks will have to do, along with basic notebooks, for most EN users; some will find saved searches sensible and fun to use, but many will not. Evernote is clearly not intending, and maybe not in a technical position, to implement multi-level notebooks.

As for terminology, I think it's best to call things what the software and its help system call them, to avoid confusion and frustration. Yet I noticed an Evernote employee alumnus referring to "folders" in another thread just now, so it's not an unnatural thing to do. As a retired teacher, I remember just trying to steer folks back to the standard terminology, and trying not to be heavy-handed about it.

[Athena13 12]

13 hours ago, DTLow said:

Evernote uses notebooks and tags; these are two fields in the note metadata
There are some functional differences to folders
but users can emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar (screenshot from my Mac )

>>Your last sentence, which I assume meant to be that users "who" are unable ...

Thanks, I made the correction

Thanks - I understand tags; I was just referring to the insistence on correcting noobs in a way that is dismissive and doesn't explain to them the differences (or similarities) to folders.  Branding is great; consistent nomenclature is great; but to improve understanding (and thus adoption of the product), it might need to be spelled out without implying someone is an idiot for using more familiar terminology.  And to be clear, I haven't personally experienced this and wouldn't be bothered if I had, but I've seen it over and over, and it's pretty off-putting and also often creates a communication barrier because expert users here respond as if someone has spoken in an alien tongue if they don't use the EN lexicon.  

ETA:  "These are two fields in the metadata" is an excellent example of my other point: "two fields in the metadata" means something to you, but it means nothing to most casual users, and close-to-nothing (as in knowing what fields and metadata are, but not having the requisite knowledge or experience to know how that plays out in how the app behaves, or whatever other reason that is relevant information) to non-tech-pro-but-pretty-skilled-in-the-world-of-end-users people.

And fwiw, as I've said, I'm not a tech person by trade.  However, I have been the business owner of programs that undertook projects to identify, select, and design applications within certain platforms (full customization), and in that capacity and my capacity as a pretty hands-on project owner, I have been in the postition of being the only person (in both a Fortune 10 and a Fortune 100 company) who could translate (in both directions) between the developers/their PM and the stakeholders/business folks.  Despite being a lawyer by training and history, I could reconcile a business person talking about what the end user is going to want to be able to do with the methods and technical limitations of the chosen platform.  Because there was that translation, a lot of things that the developer team/PM said couldn't be done actually could, and would, and I know for certain the vendor themselves learned a few new ways to approach an issue and a few new capacities to market.  We ended up having a better product and outcome that way for sure, because (my general point) coders and developers and folks immersed in that all day speak a different language to a lot of users.

[Athena13 12]

1 hour ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

Well.... I think @Athena13 has a fair point or two here. I consider myself a "power user" of several pieces of Windows and Android software, though I'm not a programmer. I could (and probably should, and one day likely will) learn the precise and rather arcane search grammar that some folks here employ on a daily basis to organize their use of Evernote. I've used script-like TSR keystroke playback software (a long time ago, hence "TSR"). But I'd rather find simpler ways of interacting with my Evernote data, and I sure wouldn't expect someone who's just trying to get a little work/hobbying/shopping done to jump through such hoops.

Generally, though, I think the most frequent helpers here are sensitive to the varying levels of technical skill and interest of people who post questions. Tags and stacks will have to do, along with basic notebooks, for most EN users; some will find saved searches sensible and fun to use, but many will not. Evernote is clearly not intending, and maybe not in a technical position, to implement multi-level notebooks.

As for terminology, I think it's best to call things what the software and its help system call them, to avoid confusion and frustration. Yet I noticed an Evernote employee alumnus referring to "folders" in another thread just now, so it's not an unnatural thing to do. As a retired teacher, I remember just trying to steer folks back to the standard terminology, and trying not to be heavy-handed about it.

Thanks, Dave-in-Decatur.  I agree with all you said (I say this, recognizing that I might have suggested that I take issue with the EN terminology or don't understand it, which is not my position at all) and appreciate your comment!

[Athena13 12]

4 minutes ago, DTLow said:

fwiw  I updated my post with a definition of metadata and fields

Okay, now it's my turn to apologize for not considering my audience and differences in ways of hearing/approaching things.  I apologize for that!  I did not mean to single you out, or to imply that I wanted you to change anything you'd written to me 😳, but I do appreciate the time and effort you took to respond.   

(I'm the sort of person who does not necessarily speak in terms of action items, and who speaks in order to hash out an idea, not waiting to speak only when I've fully digested my thought and have something specific in mind to resolve it.  I could bore you with MBTI (descriptive personality assessments) information about me and "types" that are more commonly drawn to technical fields, but I'm off-topic as it is.)

In any case, thank you for the response and for giving consideration to my comments. 🙂

[ukw 2]

On 8/23/2019 at 6:18 PM, MM_SAT said:

One Note does have this feature. 

Doesn't make much sense to refer to OneNote here, although both applications serve a similar purpose.

But as Evernote is based on a database (afaik), OneNote is based on file and folder structures on the storage level (even when the notebooks are stored on OneDrive, where the OneNote files are hidden except for a URL link file). In the original OneNote format notebooks are simple folders in the file system, sections are files (with the .ONE extension) that hold all pages and subpages in an object centered format based on XML. So it's natural for OneNote to use a hierachy, but lacks 1-to-n relations. A note(page) has to be in exact one section. If you want to sort a chocolate pie recipe under "pies" as well as unter "sweets", in OneNote you would have to create two sections and put copies of the recipe note in them. All changes would have to be done to both notes separately. In Evernote you simply add both tags to one note. That's the beauty of relational databases. Yes, OneNote does have sort of tags, too. But those are merely an optical marker of certain objects (like paragraphs or pictures) whith almost no way to use them as a filter or for detailied searches.

I am not trying to bash OneNote here (in fact, I have been a OneNote MVP for several years, and still very active OneNote user), I am just trying to point out that the underlying data structure/model of both programs are very different and I suppose it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to just transfer organisational concepts from one to the other.

[DTLow 5,736]

5 hours ago, ukw said:

But as Evernote is based on a database (afaik)

Yes, getting technical, Evernote metadata (notebook, tags...) is stored in a SQLite database.  
Documentation at https://dev.evernote.com/doc/articles/data_structure.php

Multi-level was implemented by including a parent-tag field in the tag record.  
This allows for unlimited levels.  
(Tags are the primary tool in Evernote for note organization)

[PinkElephant 8,103]

To put it simple: In EN each note belongs to exactly one notebook. It can not have no notebook, it can not have more than one. And the data structure reflects this relationship called 1:n technically. To change this would probably mean rebuilding EN from scratch.

With tags, it is different, because each note can have multiple tags, each  Tag can be used for multiple notes, and a tag can „belong“ to another tag. This is why on the user interface, one can nest tags (at the moment only on desktop clients), and why tags are much more flexible than notebooks in their use.

Conclusion: If you want to use EN as your „second brain“, you have to organize your content based on this structure. If you work against it, you will never be happy with EN - so better move on to another program than start the 1000-and-1st discussion here that nesting of notes and notebooks would be needed. No, it is not needed, if EN is used as it is build.

Once you set up things according to the abilities of EN, you will find this aproach to be much stronger and more flexible than any nesting of notes. In practically all „nested“ structures (like the ones created by the file system in most operating systems like Windows), you typically end up with incoherent structures and duplicate documents. Both can be avoided by 100% when following the EN filing logic.

A starting point can be found here:

https://help.evernote.com/hc/en-us/articles/209006097

 

[CalS 5,280]

You can use EN with one notebook and no tags, or two notebooks if you want to have access to confidential data.  Then just search to find things.  But that can become unwieldy as your data grows.  From an EN perspective notebooks and tags enable winnowing down search results in a manageable fashion.  Are you a hierarchical thinker or a relational thinker, worried where you put it to find it or not worried about where you put it?  Notebooks are physical, tags are logical.  Neither way is wrong, just different mind wiring best I can tell.

EN opted to support relational thinking and set up the plumbing accordingly via tags.  I am clueless as to what the undertaking would be to add nested notebooks.  But I have to believe it is a chunk based upon the reticence to do it with all the flak in these forums.  Which brings us back to it is what it is and no amount of howling at the moon seems to get it fixed.  So keep howling if you like and/or modify your workflow to use EN or find a product better suited.  Life be too short.

[PinkElephant 8,103]

Again technically spoken, if the note-notebook structure would be changed from 1:n to n:m (in relational DB speak), there would be an additional table needed to keep the data for the new flexibility.

To read this, all syncing and search routines would have to be altered, and probably most of the back end supporting the EN servers as well. All of them, and it would for sure cost search performance, because it would mean another link table needs to be read out in each search job.

It would probably be easier to create a new SW with this features, than try to rebuild the existing one.

P.S. Just a user, not EN staff ...

[DTLow 5,736]

9 hours ago, CalS said:

I am clueless as to what the undertaking would be to add nested notebooks.  But I have to believe it is a chunk based upon the reticence to do it with all the flak in these forums.

Right, "a chunk"; and Evernote took on the work to add notebook stacks. This was a database change, and UI update to each software client

With extra effort this could have been nested notebooks.

Multi-level is a design decision, implemented for tags, not notebooks

>>Hierarchically structured tags are hierarchical thinking not relational thinking.

I don't think this discussion is hierarchical/relational related; either works for multi-level

>>worried where you put it to find it or not worried about where you put it?  Notebooks are physical, tags are logical.

Notebooks and Tags are both "logical"

For a physical emulation, use the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar

>>it is where the note actually lives in EN as far as the user knows.

I know where the note "actually lives in EN".  On a Mac, a separate file folder exists for each note

[CalS 5,280]

9 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

Again technically spoken, if the note-notebook structure would be changed from 1:n to n:m (in relational DB speak), there would be an additional table needed to keep the data for the new flexibility.

Not sure anyone is asking as much for N:N on notes and notebooks.  That request appears some in the forums but is a different topic, my view anyway.  This is more about a File Explorer notebook structure.  Mox nix to me but I would be happy for others if this mod was deployed.  Very early on in my 10 years with EN I became quite comfortable with tags, lucky me I suppose.    

[CalS 5,280]

15 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Multi-level is a design decision, implemented for tags 

Same thing.  Hierarchically structured tags are hierarchical thinking not relational thinking.  Again not a biggie, it's a preference.

[CalS 5,280]

24 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Notebooks and Tags are both "logical"

In my view notebooks are physical, it is where the note actually lives in EN as far as the user knows.  Tags enable logical notebooks. The search tag:company tag:statement creates a logical notebook for Statement.Company.  One can create "notebooks" on the fly.

[PinkElephant 8,103]

Stacks were relatively simple: one notebook can belong to exactly one stack, and if you define „not assigned“ as „assigned to the no-stack-stack“ you always have a clear structure. It can not be nested, no stack in stacks allowed. This is a database-field within „what is“, not an entire structure to support multi-level-nesting.

And even this meant a significant change when introduced.

But this is not the point: IMHO a simple notebook structure plus the flexibility of tags is what best serves the need to organize the type of information EN is build for. To change this would mean to give up focus.

[jefito 5,589]

A little late to this, as I spent my Labor Day weekend in a remote coastal area of my state with dodgy Internet connections (but with great food). Here's my semi-standard explanation for beginners, largely sans techie jargon like ":metadata" (though I can go there if asked), or metaphysical conceptualization about Evernote constructs. It's more or less a starting point for understanding and discussing Evernote concepts and how they fit together. I leave out search for further discussion, although search is necessarily closely related to the Evernote structural elements. This purely a how-they-work summary, not a how-should/can--they-be-used overview Herewith:

Evernote is a software for note taking and note collection. with the ability to access your note collection across multiple computer devices. An Evernote note can contain text, tables, links, images and other files. Notes have other properties like title, author, URL, creation date, modified date and so on.

All notes belong to exactly one notebook. In that respect, Evernote notebooks behave like physical notebooks, or shoeboxes, or folders in a file system file folders in a filing cabinet. Notebooks are not nestable: they cannot contain other notebooks; only notes. Notebooks have names that are unique to a user's account. Notes may be moved freely among a user's notebooks.

An Evernote notebook may belong to either 0 or 1 stacks Stacks are notebook containers only, and may not contain other stacks or notes. Stacks have names that are unique to a user's account. A stack contains one or more notebooks; if the last notebook in a stack is removed, then the stack is also removed. A notebooks can be removed from its stack, or added to a stack, or moved to a different stack.

A tag is a label that you can apply to an Evernote note, but not to notebooks or stacks. You can apply the same tag to multiple notes, and a note can have 0 or more tags applied to it. Tags are just a piece of text with no intrinsic meaning, though it's really helpful if a user chooses good tag names for themselves (or for others, if notes are shared with other people). Tags behave like physical labels you might put on an object, or keywords in a research paper, or even like adjectives to a noun; they generally are used to describe the note they're applied to in some way, but again, there are no intrinsic rules as to the meanings of tag names. Tag names are unique to a user's account. By default, tags are listed in a single flat list, but they can be organized in a hierarchical fashion. There is no intrinsic meaning in Evernote as to the meaning of a tag hierarchy; the user can create a hierarchy that suits their own needs. Tags can be freely added to or removed from notes.

[RavBoy 189]

12 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

on the user interface, one can nest tags (at the moment only on desktop clients)

Only!  This is one of my big reasons why I have NOT moved to a Tag-Centric note organising system. 

12 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

Once you set up things according to the abilities of EN, you will find this aproach to be much stronger and more flexible than any nesting of notes. In practically all „nested“ structures (like the ones created by the file system in most operating systems like Windows), you typically end up with incoherent structures and duplicate documents. Both can be avoided by 100% when following the EN filing logic.

Would love to follow EN' tag-filing logic, but until they sort out the inconsistencies across platforms, I resolve the duplication issue using in-app-links, and the occasional use of a tag. 

Strangely, the Tag Interface on EN-Web 'Classic-Old Version' is significantly more user friendly than their New Beta Version - in terms of displaying Tag-Hierarchies, Nested Tag Structures etc.  Seems like a big backward step!  Especially if Tags are meant to be the primary way one is meant to organise their Notes in EN, as I've read from time to time. 

And if Tags really were/are meant to be the primary method of organising EN, why aren't Nested Tag Hierarchies evident across all platforms! Because if they were, I for one, would no longer have need for multi level notebooks, but until that time I too would love to see another 1 or 2 levels of Multi-level Notebook Nesting.

EN-Windows desktop has an excellent Nested Tag Structure, many levels deep, that would be awesome in place of Multi-level notebooks, but the platform-inconsistencies kill my decision to adopt Tagging seriously.  My 'main' reason however, for not moving to a Tag-Centric note organising system, or indeed take advantage of Nested tags in lieu of Multi-Level notebooks, is the Web-Clipper!

The Web-Clipper displays a drop-down besides the 'Notebook' field, that allows me to visually and easily navigate and find the notebook I wish to clip to... BUT then there is No/None/Nil/Nada drop-down for the 'Tag' field, to display my Nested Tag Hierarchy, or even a list of all Tags, alphabetised! The latter is pretty obvious given how long the list could get, but again if Tags were meant to be the primary way to do things, and Nested Tags are the solution, then the web-clipper should show the nested tag hierarchy as it does with the Notebook drop-down

12 hours ago, CalS said:

From an EN perspective notebooks and tags enable winnowing down search results in a manageable fashion.  Are you a hierarchical thinker or a relational thinker, worried where you put it to find it or not worried about where you put it?  Notebooks are physical, tags are logical.  Neither way is wrong, just different mind wiring best I can tell.

This is golden.  You've really captured the essence of the issue, and the divide amongst users...love this.

Even if I were to add multiple tags to a note when clipping with web-clipper, I would still want to find them using a visual nested tag structure offered by way of a clipper drop-down.  Even when finding or navigating to existing notes in my EN-desktop client, I still prefer to navigate multi-level notebooks visually, hierarchically. I just find it to be faster and more effective than EN search, that most of the time provides way too many results...and just takes too much time. The ol scroll-wheel and clicks vs many key strokes keying in various search syntax battle... and using search-shortcuts would only work in the beginning IMHO.

My Vote, is for at least 1, ideally 2, more levels of Multi-level Notebook Nesting. If that's too hard, then EN please fix up Tag Nesting-Hierarchies across all platforms and I'll switch to that.

[jefito 5,589]

7 hours ago, RavBoy said:

Only!  This is one of my big reasons why I have NOT moved to a Tag-Centric note organising system. 

Note that nestable tags are not required for tag-centric organization. It helps if you want to do mouse clicking up and down a tree of organizing elements (folder, tags, whatever), sure, but not everyone needs-- or wants -- to do that. Some of us just type in the tags they want to search for...

[DTLow 5,736]

8 hours ago, RavBoy said:

...This is one of my big reasons why I have NOT moved to a Tag-Centric note organising system...

For myself, the big reason is that tag-centric allows for multiple entries per note; my notes have multiple organization categories

Multi-level is of secondary importance, but all platform hierarchy has my vote

[PinkElephant 8,103]

The nesting of tags IMHO is good for keeping the tags organized, not for the tagging itself.

Currently I take some time every few month or so to review the use of tags, unify those who are synonyms, exchange and delete those that do not get much use (and probably will not get for the near future) etc. Here nesting gives a structure for a quick overview over the 3-digit number of tags I have created up to now.

The use of the tags is independent from nesting. I can tag without problems in the Webclipper or the iOS client as well, where the nesting will not show. What is a bigger problem (but for both notebook assignment and tags) on the mobile platform is that one can work on a single note only at any time. So for EN housekeeping it is better to use a desktop client, where several notes can be organized at once.

[gazumped 11,664]

For a long time I have been a big advocate of keeping all your notes in one basket - sorry,  notebook - and only making new notebooks where you absolutely have to for sharing,  projects-in-progress and the like.  Typically I'd have around 30 in total,  but 99% of my (currently) 46.6K notes and counting would be in my main (default) notebook.

Recently I've been revisiting the concept,  and I'm up to about 90 notebooks.  There are several reasons for that - speeding up searches, autosaving/ archiving emails,  and so on - but my new paradigm is to have a notebook for the subject of my notes and attachments.  If I regularly clip from an online or otherwise publication,  it's the name of that publication;  if I use PayPal (duh) it's |Paypal;  if I buy from Amazon (also duh) it's |Amazon - and the smarter amongst you will immediately notice a conflict - what if I buy something from Amazon with Paypal?  And the answer is:  stuff from PayPal goes into |PayPal and stuff from (and to, if necessary) Amazon goes into |Amazon. 

I connect that sort of conflict with a consistent title and tags which get recorded in Workflowy because they have a killer search feature which can find any given keyword in a second.

The even smarter amongst you may wonder: "Why the '|' in front of the notebook name?" - there are several benefits.  Typing "|A" in the notebook drop down immediately gets me a choice of 5 notebooks including Amazon and AWS - so I can assign notebooks easily and quickly.  And all my "|" notebooks are in a stack called 'Index' because that's kinda what it is...  and they all have a tag xIndexed,  so I can search through the notes that aren't in that index yet,  to assign them appropriately.

This runs alongside Google having some rules to dump regular emails like updates and newsletters into my default notebook for manual reassignment (haven't worked out that automation yet,  but I know it's possible with Filterize).  My Outlook 2013 has a handy little 'quick steps' feature that will forward and delete emails to Evernote's default email address and add @notebook and #tag names to the subject line,  so I have one-key solutions for all my notebooks.  Outlook is my go-to mail client for.. several email addresses (including Google) so I can do a lot of management from there.

Anything that doesn't attract lots of emails gets a 'community' notebook - like |InstalledApps - that's got all my notes and clips related to the many (many) apps I have installed on my system - as opposed to the dozen or so that I use regularly.

There's a train of logic through there that I can follow,  though the general idea may not be applicable to anyone else.  I feel that searches are easier for instance if I'm looking for an Amazon issue.  Go to the |Amazon notebook and search there.  There will be no other random hits on emails mentioning the same product perhaps because I emailed a friend about it.  Only those to and from Amazon. 

Of course it's an ongoing thing - so far my "Index" notebook has around 30% of all my notes.  So I'm still doing general "-tag:xindexed" searches to find new candidates for notebooks of their own,  and to add to existing ones.  But the segregation into 'subjects' simplifies my titles and tags,  and gives me a (kinda) flying start on searches.

The general moral here is - try stuff out.  If you find something that works for you - go ahead and do it!  Worst case - I'll be retagging my |Amazon notes with xAmazon and throwing them back into general pop on another year or so.  Hope Evernote has enough bandwidth for my syncs!

[CalS 5,280]

1 hour ago, gazumped said:

Recently I've been revisiting the concept,  and I'm up to about 90 notebooks.  There are several reasons for that - speeding up searches, autosaving/ archiving emails,  and so on - but my new paradigm is to have a notebook for the subject of my notes and attachments.  If I regularly clip from an online or otherwise publication,  it's the name of that publication;  if I use PayPal (duh) it's |Paypal;  if I buy from Amazon (also duh) it's |Amazon - and the smarter amongst you will immediately notice a conflict - what if I buy something from Amazon with Paypal?  And the answer is:  stuff from PayPal goes into |PayPal and stuff from (and to, if necessary) Amazon goes into |Amazon. 

The good old horses for courses.  I do the above with tags.  I have 5 main notebooks, 3 synced and 2 local. and 2 typically empty process notebooks (INBOX and Scans), and 1 notebook which is for offline notes in IOS on the rare occasions I am without signal.  I made the separation initially for searches and backups, large exports did not import so well back in the day.  I've found some time ago I could actually get by with 2 notebooks for searches, 1 synced and 1 local, as the bulk of my searches start in All Notes context.  To date with 43.5 k notes I still have instantaneous searches.  But I don't want to change should the import bugaboo reappear.

I have an Amazon tag as well.  A search for tag:ama* coffee returns 43 notes in short order.  Just easier and quicker for me not to use a tag as opposed to a notebook.  Again, horses for courses and how our minds work, or don't from time to time.  

Speed demonstration.  The screen recorder I use can be a bit jittery so I did one typing correctly and a second where I add the * to the tag, 43 appears right after the *.  FWIW.

[jefito 5,589]

50 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

The nesting of tags IMHO is good for keeping the tags organized, not for the tagging itself.

I prefer to spend time organizing my notes, not my tags. My tag vocabulary is pretty stable by now anyways, but I do still add new tags on occasion. Even so, some of my tags resist a pure hierarchy anyways, because they can be used in different contexts: there's no single place to put them. In practice, I keep my Windows left panel tag tree closed almost all the time; I just plain don't use them for note navigation. BTW, this also has the benefit of making he lack of tag hierarchy on other platforms irrelevant to me. 

All the above being said, consistency in presentation would be a good thing for folks who do use them for navigation. 

29 minutes ago, CalS said:

I have an Amazon tag as well.  A search for tag:ama* coffee returns 43 notes in short order.  Just easier and quicker for me not to use a tag as opposed to a notebook.  Again, horses for courses and how our minds work, or don't from time to time.  

Guess we know who the coffee hound is around here...  

[gazumped 11,664]

1 hour ago, CalS said:

returns 43 notes in short order

IIRC you have an SSD and this is where it might score.  If I go for "notebook:|Amazon" it takes a solid three-count for things to happen.  If I start in the notebook and search for one item,  there's a similar delay before the notes pop up.  But they are only the notes for that one order,  rather than - as has happened to me before now - another dozen or so random hits from similar words in different contexts.  Meh - as you say;  it's how I want to work for now - we'll see if I change my mind!

1 hour ago, jefito said:

Guess we know who the coffee hound is around here..

And hey - don't go jumpin' to no conclusions here stranger;  there's some competition for that position - along with the consumption (out of school hours) of other recreational beverages with a higher specific gravity...

[CalS 5,280]

1 minute ago, gazumped said:

And hey - don't go jumpin' to no conclusions here stranger;  there's some competition for that position - along with the consumption (out of school hours) of other recreational beverages with a higher specific gravity...

But they must be delivered from a different source, with minimums, which are readily met....

[DTLow 5,736]

8 hours ago, gazumped said:

my new paradigm is to have a notebook for the subject of my notes and attachments

How do you handle notes with multiple subjects?

You mentioned buying stuff from Amazon.  This would be one of my subjects (vendor) but I would usually have other subjects; for example an expense budget category

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,956]

14 hours ago, jefito said:

Here's my semi-standard explanation for beginners....

Jeff, just want to say that that's a great, clear, and comprehensive-as-it-needs-to-be introduction to the Evernote system.

I'm sticking the link to this thread into my ever-growing "How to organize in Evernote" note that, if I ever break a leg, I will spend a couple of days working through and developing my own organizational philosophy or psychology or spirituality or whatever this turns into.

[gazumped 11,664]

23 minutes ago, DTLow said:

How do you handle notes with multiple subjects?

You mentioned buying stuff from Amazon.  This would be one of my subjects, vendor, but I would usually have other subjects; for example an expense budget category

The only inflexible(ish) rule is anything to or from Amazon goes into Amazon.  Everything else is now a tag - though for belt and braces (that's suspenders,  not teeth) I also have significant dates and keywords in the title.  An Amazon purchase (for instance) gets the purchase date as a title plus the name(s) of the items purchased.

[jefito 5,589]

1 hour ago, gazumped said:

2 hours ago, jefito said:

Guess we know who the coffee hound is around here..

And hey - don't go jumpin' to no conclusions here stranger;  there's some competition for that position - along with the consumption (out of school hours) of other recreational beverages with a higher specific gravity...

Heh, I meant aside from me. I just buy mine locally (and locally roasted), rather than mail order...

[jefito 5,589]

1 hour ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

Jeff, just want to say that that's a great, clear, and comprehensive-as-it-needs-to-be introduction to the Evernote system.

Oh, thanks. It's sort of a standard mantra I've been using for awhile to isolate the main Evernote organizational components; it's always seemed to me that it's a good starting point for how you can then start talking about various organization schemes in Evernote, particularly when you add in the Evernote search capabilities. This is the sort of stuff I look for when I look at Evernote competitors (or any new software, really), but never seem to find (e.g. OneNote, Notion, at least the last time I looked at them).

[DTLow 5,736]

18 hours ago, jefito said:

Evernote notebooks behave like physical notebooks, or shoeboxes, or folders in a file system.

I think the multi-level issue of the discussion is because notebooks do not perform like folders; i.e. subfolders but no subnotebooks

For navigation, we can emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar on Windows/Mac

[jefito 5,589]

1 hour ago, DTLow said:

I think the multi-level issue of the discussion is because notebooks do not perform like folders; i.e. subfolders but no subnotebooks

Good catch: they behave like folders in a file system in that (normally) a fle belongs to exactly one folder. Maybe "folders in a filing cabinet would be better". I'll edit.

Quote

For navigation, we can emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar on Windows/Mac

Sure, and we all know that, but the point of that particular post was to describe the properties of Evernote notes, notebooks, stacks, and tags actually work and interact, not how to use them. It's the starting point, and crucial to understanding what you can and cannot do with them. Fact is, the emulation is actually rather poor because tag names are unique to an account, and cannot be repeated in the hierarchy. The latter fact (tag uniqueness) is essential to understanding the limitations of using tags as a file folder emulation.

[CalS 5,280]

4 hours ago, jefito said:

Heh, I meant aside from me. I just buy mine locally (and locally roasted), rather than mail order...

Damn yuppies....

[jefito 5,589]

3 hours ago, CalS said:

Damn yuppies....

And millennials, and you don't know the half of it. My town of just under 70,000 people has at least 5 roasteries that I can name off the top of my head in the city limits, and 20 or more craft breweries and I'm not even much of a drinker. And then the restaurants -- I could go on. Anyways, the coffee I get is roasted about 30 miles away, but I can get it at my local grocery store, and I wouldn't buy it is it wasn't good.

[RY27 21]

One alternative to multiple notebook levels could be adding an ability to add sections within each notebook so that there is at least a visual separation between the notes. I think, Todoist handles it beautifully in their latest beta version. 

[DTLow 5,736]

57 minutes ago, RY27 said:

One alternative to multiple notebook levels could be adding an ability to add sections within each notebook

So, Stacks > Notebooks > Sections

Can you add some details?

It's not the same as notebook levels, but a rose by another name ....

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,956]

20 hours ago, RY27 said:

One alternative to multiple notebook levels could be adding an ability to add sections within each notebook so that there is at least a visual separation between the notes. I think, Todoist handles it beautifully in their latest beta version. 

If I'm understanding you correctly, it would be possible to do this (unless and until EN implements something more elegant) by simply creating a note titled "Separator" containing nothing more than, say, a horizontal line. And/or maybe a title for the following section.

[jefito 5,589]

20 hours ago, RY27 said:

One alternative to multiple notebook levels could be adding an ability to add sections within each notebook so that there is at least a visual separation between the notes. I think, Todoist handles it beautifully in their latest beta version. 

I'd guess that the level-of-effort for implementing sub-notebooks would be about the same as implementing sections. It would be an architectural change, affecting the internals of notebook (need a list of sections) and notes (what section am I in?), as well as search and sorting (remember, notes can be sorted across networks in various ways, so "visual separation" wouldn't always be apparent), across all Evernote platforms, including the Evernote servers. I don't see much difference, conceptually.

[RY27 21]

13 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

If I'm understanding you correctly, it would be possible to do this (unless and until EN implements something more elegant) by simply creating a note titled "Separator" containing nothing more than, say, a horizontal line. And/or maybe a title for the following section.

You could do that but without an ability to manually organize notes within a notebook, it gets messy. You need workarounds like a numbering scheme to make sure that all the notes are in the right order vis-a-vis the separator. 

[RY27 21]

13 hours ago, jefito said:

I'd guess that the level-of-effort for implementing sub-notebooks would be about the same as implementing sections. It would be an architectural change, affecting the internals of notebook (need a list of sections) and notes (what section am I in?), as well as search and sorting (remember, notes can be sorted across networks in various ways, so "visual separation" wouldn't always be apparent), across all Evernote platforms, including the Evernote servers. I don't see much difference, conceptually.

You are probably right. I’ve no idea what’s easier to implement. 

[RY27 21]

On 10/16/2019 at 1:12 PM, DTLow said:

So, Stacks > Notebooks > Sections

Can you add some details?

It's not the same as notebook levels, but a rose by another name ....

It’s basically what Dave and jefito above said. You can think of it as a special type of note within a notebook that would essentially act as a header for other notes.  Would it be better than another level of sub-notebooks? I don’t know, just an idea based on what I saw implemented elsewhere and thought it was a helpful way to organize longer lists of items. For me when a list of notes gets longer than 6 or so items, it’s harder for me to grasp immediately what these items are and I actually have to read the titles with a different level of attention than just glancing at a list quickly. 

[DTLow 5,736]

22 minutes ago, RY27 said:

You need workarounds like a numbering scheme to make sure that all the notes are in the right order vis-a-vis the separator. 

My usual sort sequence is Updated Date.  This won't work for me

I could append Section to the Notebook name

• aaaaaa - Section 1
• aaaaaa - Section 2
• aaaaaa - Section 3

 

[RY27 21]

4 minutes ago, DTLow said:

I would use Notebook names

• aaaaaa - Section 1
• aaaaaa - Section 2
• aaaaaa - Section 3

That works technically, but visually it’s not ideal. Also, if I have to retype the same phrase over and over again just go get the structure that I want, it tells me that the system that I’m implementing is not supported by the environment. 

[mastix 2]

I have been using EVERNOTE for years now and the ONLY thing I HATE is the absence of nested folder notes subnote whatever the ***** they want to call it. Search is amazing, tags superb but I want to keep a logical order with folders. Why because it is intuitive because it is fast because you do not always assign tags etc etc. It is beyond me why this tech savy folks do not implement something for their customers that is asked for again and again. Arrogance.

[gazumped 11,664]

4 minutes ago, mastix said:

I have been using EVERNOTE for years now and the ONLY thing I HATE is the absence of nested folder notes subnote whatever the ***** they want to call it. Search is amazing, tags superb but I want to keep a logical order with folders. Why because it is intuitive because it is fast because you do not always assign tags etc etc. It is beyond me why this tech savy folks do not implement something for their customers that is asked for again and again. Arrogance.

Hi.  Not arrogance,  just technical;  if you read through the endless threads dealing with this topic,  you'll see that Evernote's structure just isn't set up to allow that as an option.  Whether that was ignorance, stupidity, or just lack of foresight is up to you.  But they can't deliver something that isn't technically possible within their application.  From recent comments it seems as though there may be new developments coming that may help.  But for the moment at least...

[DTLow 5,736]

2 hours ago, mastix said:

the ONLY thing I HATE is the absence of nested folder ... I want to keep a logical order with folders

Evernote has no support for folders    
You can emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar (Windows/Mac)

imho  Folders are a legacy filing method and the notebook/tag method is a great improvement

>>persons that I have recommended Evernote

I would not recommend Evernote to anyone who can't adjust to notebook/tags and must have folders

[mastix 2]

Yeah I know. Unfortunately. As I said Notebooks and tags are great for finding your content. But to have a neat order of all your themes Folders/Subfolders as 1000 times superior to the notebook/tag method. I know you and millions think like you. Other millions think like me and that is the  reason why this subject comes up again and again. And also why at least three persons that I have recommended Evernote have stayed away. One day they might figure it out.......

[PinkElephant 8,103]

One can do anything for everybody, but you should remember that there is a price tag applied to it as well.

Supporting multiple structures for access means more complex software, and less performance / costlier server requirements as well. Currently EN management is on the path to reduce complexity, by redesigning the existing landscape. It is „reduce to the max“ after years of more or less uncontrolled growth, which has brought the company close to a crisis. I think this is much more relevant to the longer term survival of EN than adding features that would cut deeply into the structure of data and applications.

Or in shorter words: Everybody’s darling is everybody’s fool ... in software as in real life.

[Kevinxx 0]

I'd like to have three levels of stacks, and then tag from there.

I've followed the suggestion I've seen many places to create three notebooks or stacks of notebooks--00 INBOX, 01 PERSONAL, 02 WORK.

Within 01 PERSONAL I'd like substacks for things like HOUSE, HOBBIES and PLACES.

I tore my hair out until I realized Evernote will only stack notebooks once (no stacks of stacks).

In addition Evernote has changed so much so quickly that most of the things I see no longer work as seen/described--not even on official Evernote videos..

[metaview2012 1]

I just scanned this topic, hoping to learn that at some point Evernote decided to implement the ability to place stacks within stacks.  It's a basic information-organization request.  I must say that Evernote has lost my patience and, further, my good will in continuing to renew my subscription to this software/product.  I will be migrating my data to another platform before the next renewal payment is due.  

I find it inexcusable, the cavalier attitude Evernote has displayed in responding to YEARS of sincere and polite requests from its users for this very basic feature.

 

[gazumped 11,664]

9 hours ago, metaview2012 said:

I find it inexcusable, the cavalier attitude Evernote has displayed in responding to YEARS of sincere and polite requests from its users for this very basic feature.

If you genuinely scanned the topic,  you should have seen a comment that Evernote's initial design architecture didn't allow for stacks within stacks without rebuilding the product from the ground up.  Another post mentions that new features are now being worked on which may make a difference in the future.  Meantime 225 million users are actively using the existing version,  which means the company needs to take very great care to avoid causing problems for the existing customer base.

...and for the record Evernote have - as they would normally do on ANY feature requests - avoided any comment at all until fairly recently.  That's not a cavalier attitude,  that's standard practice for any company getting thousands of conflicting requests from millions of users.  An attempt to respond directly to customers would lead to hundreds of staff being totally tied up dealing with queries.  It's more productive to get on with coding and release the results.

Anyhoo.  Sorry that the app as is doesn't suit you - good luck with whatever new platform you choose.

[DTLow 5,736]

On 11/16/2019 at 4:42 PM, Kevinxx said:

I'd like to have three levels of stacks ... most of the things I see no longer work as seen/described--not even on official Evernote videos..

You might want to start a new topic; this discussion is for notebook levels

>>Within 01 PERSONAL I'd like substacks for things like HOUSE, HOBBIES and PLACES.

You could use three stacks; PERSONAL-House, PERSONAL-Hobbies, PERSONAL-Places

>>levels of stacks, and then tag from there

You seem to have chosen Stacks as your primary organization tool.
You might reconsider this; Evernote's primary organization tool is Tags

There is no actual Stack entity; it's simply a collection of Notebooks
If you take away the Notebooks; the stack disappears

[PinkElephant 8,103]

EN does not refuse to do something like stacked notebooks, they simply don’t do it. And that is for a reason, because they would need to take the whole EN structure (apps, sync and server) apart and rebuild it from scratch.

As a user, if you think you need a „deep“ notebook structure, you have simply not understood how EN works for you. EN works for you when you use it the way it is designed. And this is notebooks for very general organisation, plus control of local / offline notebooks, sharing etc.

The real, multidimensional note organisation in EN is done by tags - and these can be nested etc., all you probably want to do, and then some more. Simply think of a tag like a folder, and if you put more than one tag on a note, you put it virtually into more than one folder at a time, without needing a duplicate.

If you use this EN principle, you will be able to organize your information in an optimal way. If not, you better switch to another app.

[mastix 2]

 

11 hours ago, metaview2012 said:

I just scanned this topic, hoping to learn that at some point Evernote decided to implement the ability to place stacks within stacks.  It's a basic information-organization request.  I must say that Evernote has lost my patience and, further, my good will in continuing to renew my subscription to this software/product.  I will be migrating my data to another platform before the next renewal payment is due.  

I find it inexcusable, the cavalier attitude Evernote has displayed in responding to YEARS of sincere and polite requests from its users for this very basic feature.

 

As has been mentioned Evernote will not go this route. There are much better alternatives on the market now where you have this nested structure plus tags. If you ask me Evernote has become an old dinosaur in their field.  At a time they were nearly the only player in town. Not anymore. i am still using evernote but not so much anymore as I have discovered better options that do have a hierarchy of folders where you can keep your data much better organized.

[DTLow 5,736]

11 hours ago, mastix said:

where you have this nested structure plus tags

Actually Tags is the nested structure in Evernote.    
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet

>>hierarchy of folders where you can keep your data much better organized

Both Mac and Windows support nested folders.  You don't need an app/service for this

I question the "much better organized"

>>to be organized the windows/apple folder structure is much better in my opinion ...  the folders system wins hands down

(folder structure)  A legacy filing method that I happily abandoned when I switched to Evernote

btw  Some users emulate folders in Evernote using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar

>>Nested is 'legacy'???

The legacy reference is to the folder filing structure 

[mastix 2]

As you said better organized is a subjective terms. I like tags for searching quickly note with those terms but to be organized the windows/apple folder structure is much better in my opinion. Of course yours might be different.  The reason I still use Evernote is that it goes always with me on my iphone,android,pc etc and I can throw anything very quickly at it. But all my important documents are well organized in a folder structure with many levels in Google drive. Evernote has no purpose for that ...the folders system wins hands down....at least for me.

[metaview2012 1]

1 hour ago, gazumped said:

If you genuinely scanned the topic,  you should have seen a comment that Evernote's initial design architecture didn't allow for stacks within stacks without rebuilding the product from the ground up.  Another post mentions that new features are now being worked on which may make a difference in the future.  Meantime 225 million users are actively using the existing version,  which means the company needs to take very great care to avoid causing problems for the existing customer base.

...and for the record Evernote have - as they would normally do on ANY feature requests - avoided any comment at all until fairly recently.  That's not a cavalier attitude,  that's standard practice for any company getting thousands of conflicting requests from millions of users.  An attempt to respond directly to customers would lead to hundreds of staff being totally tied up dealing with queries.  It's more productive to get on with coding and release the results.

Anyhoo.  Sorry that the app as is doesn't suit you - good luck with whatever new platform you choose.

So, your source for your opinions is the opinions of other commenters, not from Evernote itself; which means you don't really know what Evernote's initial design architecture was, only that it didn't include stacks, which we knew already, hence these years of requests.  The gist of your excuse for the company is, "It would be REALLY hard to do."  But you don't know how hard, exactly, since you don't know the code's design except for what other commenters, also not from Evernote, have speculated.  In short, you're talking through your hat.  Which is your right.  But your opinion, by your own admission, is not an informed one, except by the opinions of other non-informed commenters.

So, I'm happy that you're happy with Evernote's refusal to implement nested stacks.  Use it in good health.  Bye.

[DTLow 5,736]

18 minutes ago, metaview2012 said:

you don't know the code's design

I use a database browser to view Evernote's database design on my Mac   
It's a simple SQLite database

>>What database browser do you use?

DB Browser

[metaview2012 1]

28 minutes ago, mastix said:

 

As has been mentioned Evernote will not go this route. There are much better alternatives on the market now where you have this nested structure plus tags. If you ask me Evernote has become an old dinosaur in their field.  At a time they were nearly the only player in town. Not anymore. i am still using evernote but not so much anymore as I have discovered better options that do have a hierarchy of folders where you can keep your data much better organized.

I agree with you.  It's too bad, too.  Evernote has a lot of good features, and I've relied on it for years.  It will be a job to get all my notes re-located, but it'll have to be done if I want to take my notes and clippings to the next level of organization and usefulness.

[jefito 5,589]

21 minutes ago, mastix said:

If you ask me Evernote has become an old dinosaur in their field.

Horses for courses. Sometimes a "dinosaur" like a plain text editor is the exact tool required. Evernote suits my needs just fine without nested notebooks and other stuff, as it pretty much has over the last 10 years or so -- it's simple and yet expressive..If Evernote isn't working well for you, then you should by all means explore other possibilities. It's a wide world out there; thankfully there's more ice cream flavors than vanilla, too.

Editorial note: is it time to merge this topic with the main request in the General Requests forum?

[metaview2012 1]

1 minute ago, DTLow said:

I use a database browser to view Evernote's database design on my Mac   
It's a simple SQLite database

What database browser do you use?  Jeez, if that's all there is to it, then there's even less reason for Evernote not to upgrade its product.

[metaview2012 1]

2 minutes ago, jefito said:

Horses for courses. Sometimes a "dinosaur" like a plain text editor is the exact tool required. Evernote suits my needs just fine without nested notebooks and other stuff, as it pretty much has over the last 10 years or so -- it's simple and yet expressive..If Evernote isn't working well for you, then you should by all means explore other possibilities. It's a wide world out there; thankfully there's more ice cream flavors than vanilla, too.

Editorial note: is it time to merge this topic with the main request in the General Requests forum?

Would your preference be disturbed by Evernote adding a feature you don't personally use?  No.  

[metaview2012 1]

18 minutes ago, DTLow said:

A legacy filing method that I happily abandoned when I switched to Evernote

btw  Some users emulate folders in Evernote using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar

Nested is 'legacy'???  Tags hardly suffice as a replacement.  Tags are legacy.  But keep on defending Evernote.  I really don't care.  I'm leaving because of its actual legacy design.

[metaview2012 1]

3 minutes ago, DTLow said:

DB Browser

Thank you.

[jefito 5,589]

28 minutes ago, metaview2012 said:

So, your source for your opinions is the opinions of other commenters, not from Evernote itself; which means you don't really know what Evernote's initial design architecture was, only that it didn't include stacks, which we knew already, hence these years of requests.

We already know what Evernote's architecture is, at least its public face (it's changed a bit over the past 10 years, but it's largely the same): http://dev.evernote.com/doc/reference/ (feel free to inform yourself, as others have). Stacks were a bit of a hack, as there's no actual Stack data structure; it's just a name in a Notebook.If Evernote wanted to change it, they could, but it certainly would have effects downstream, and of course it would be a fair amount of work to re-architect their various applications, including their servers. That's not an excuse, just my viewpoint as a long-time developer and Evernote observer. Of course, such change could be made (and maybe yet will be, hard to tell as they're focusing, publicly, on other stuff currently), but maybe, just maybe, they don't want to do nested notebooks for aesthetic reasons. They haven't said, and I can't tell from outside, and don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. I'm just happy to have a tool that works well for me, and seems to suit a fair number of other folks. That it may not suit everyone is fine. There's plenty of room for other note keeping software out there

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,956]

11 minutes ago, metaview2012 said:

1 hour ago, gazumped said:

If you genuinely scanned the topic,  you should have seen a comment that Evernote's initial design architecture didn't allow for stacks within stacks without rebuilding the product from the ground up.  Another post mentions that new features are now being worked on which may make a difference in the future....

So, your source for your opinions is the opinions of other commenters, not from Evernote itself; which means you don't really know what Evernote's initial design architecture was, only that it didn't include stacks, which we knew already, hence these years of requests.  The gist of your excuse for the company is, "It would be REALLY hard to do."  But you don't know how hard, exactly, since you don't know the code's design except for what other commenters, also not from Evernote, have speculated.  In short, you're talking through your hat.  Which is your right.  But your opinion, by your own admission, is not an informed one, except by the opinions of other non-informed commenters.

So, I'm happy that you're happy with Evernote's refusal to implement nested stacks.  Use it in good health.  Bye.

I know I should let @gazumped reply for himself. But the fact that you reject advice without trying it is too much. @gazumped was, I'm confident, referring to this post from June 17 in this thread:

Evernote staff, it says, so not just a poor ignorant user like the rest of us. Evidently you joined the forums solely to issue these ill-tempered and ill-informed posts. You ought at least to read Scott's post before you go. You could then apologize for your gratuitous insult to a guy who spends his time here for free trying to help people. Or not, up to you.

[jefito 5,589]

10 minutes ago, metaview2012 said:

Would your preference be disturbed by Evernote adding a feature you don't personally use?  No.  

Maybe no, maybe yes. For one, if the interface / user metaphor for nesting notebooks made things more complicated or cluttered, sure I'd not be happy with that. Moreover, if the time they took to accomplish nested notebooks (hint, substantial) took away from other things they're doing that I want (better search, better functional commonality across all Evernote platforms), yeah, that would probably bother me too. Flip side: I believe that I am intellectually capable of coping with the presence of nested notebook functionality. Yes.

[metaview2012 1]

1 hour ago, DTLow said:

You might want to start a new topic; this discussion is for notebook levels

>>Within 01 PERSONAL I'd like substacks for things like HOUSE, HOBBIES and PLACES.

You could use three stacks; PERSONAL-House, PERSONAL-Hobbies, PERSONAL-Places

>>levels of stacks, and then tag from there

You seem to have chosen Stacks as your primary organization tool.
You might reconsider this; Evernote's primary organization tool is Tags

There is no actual Stack entity; it's simply a collection of Notebooks
If you take away the Notebooks; the stack disappears

Kludgy proposed solution, but nice try for those who want to stay within this one dimensional notes product.

[metaview2012 1]

On 6/21/2018 at 2:25 PM, I'll pay for MultiLevel NB said:

Can someone from Evernote company explain why do you refuse to implement  multi-level notebook (more than 2 level)?

• This feature is requested since the early days of Evernote
• If tags were a valid an option  nobody asked for this feature
• Implementing multi-level notebook it's not difficult.
• The multi-level notebook is a necessity for "hard" users who have tens or hundreds noteboks, so you can sell it as premium feature.
• Even you don't agree with my opinion why don't create a pool asking users if they want this feature ?
• Tag based organization it's not so easy for some users:

 

So i finish as i started: Why don't you  implement multi-level notebooks ?

A decent review page of 2019 alternatives to Evernote, including several with nested hierarchies of folders.  See:  "The 10 Best Note-Taking Apps in 2019 – Evernote, Notion, and More" https://collegeinfogeek.com/best-note-taking-apps/ 

[DTLow 5,736]

4 hours ago, metaview2012 said:

Kludgy proposed solution, but nice try for those who want to stay within this one dimensional notes product.

That includes me ("want to stay within this one dimensional notes product")    
For note organization; I'm content with using the notebook/tag metadata fields.

As I posted above; some users emulate a folder structure using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar       
This adds various dimensions

[PinkElephant 8,103]

My impression is that this discussion is kept alive (zombie-like) by one forum user, and has run it‘s course.

Off to greener pastures 🐎

[CalS 5,280]

As always with this topic -

[gazumped 11,664]

5 hours ago, metaview2012 said:

So, your source for your opinions is the opinions of other commenters, not from Evernote itself;

Wow - you step out for a while and suddenly there's a fight...  Thanks to @Dave-in-Decatur for holding the line,  but maybe I should have stressed that the 'comments' I was talking about were from Evernote staffers.   Anyways:  it's perfectly fine,  if you really REALLY feel the need for a folder hierarchy,  to go find another note app that will provide that.  Evernote - apparently - will be offering more in future,  but as it is now,  a 'folder' hierarchy is not possible.  Evernote as it is works for me,  and I'm happy and staying.  YMMV!

[metaview2012 1]

On 6/21/2018 at 2:25 PM, I'll pay for MultiLevel NB said:

Can someone from Evernote company explain why do you refuse to implement  multi-level notebook (more than 2 level)?

• This feature is requested since the early days of Evernote
• If tags were a valid an option  nobody asked for this feature
• Implementing multi-level notebook it's not difficult.
• The multi-level notebook is a necessity for "hard" users who have tens or hundreds noteboks, so you can sell it as premium feature.
• Even you don't agree with my opinion why don't create a pool asking users if they want this feature ?
• Tag based organization it's not so easy for some users:

 

So i finish as i started: Why don't you  implement multi-level notebooks ?

BTW, for anyone who might be interested, here's an interesting review of the Notion app by a 10-year Evernote user:  "I switched to Notion for a week... Here's what happened!"

 

[DTLow 5,736]

19 hours ago, metaview2012 said:

A decent review page of 2019 alternatives to Evernote ...

8 hours ago, metaview2012 said:

BTW, for anyone who might be interested, here's an interesting review of the Notion app ...

Before this becomes a moderator action

This is a discussion on Multi-Level Notebooks in Evernote   
You shouldn't be hijacking it for other purposes       
Find a more appropriate place for these posts

Also, it's tacky to use Evernote's forums for these purposes

[RY27 21]

On 10/17/2019 at 9:48 AM, jefito said:

I'd guess that the level-of-effort for implementing sub-notebooks would be about the same as implementing sections. It would be an architectural change, affecting the internals of notebook (need a list of sections) and notes (what section am I in?), as well as search and sorting (remember, notes can be sorted across networks in various ways, so "visual separation" wouldn't always be apparent), across all Evernote platforms, including the Evernote servers. I don't see much difference, conceptually.

I don't know if this is a lot of effort. Evernote basically implemented something similar with the Reminders in the "Snippet" view, where if you select a stack, the reminders are all organized by a notebook, each of which can be collapsed. 

[PinkElephant 8,103]

To implement „nested notebooks“ would not be „a lot of effort“. It would mean to re-write the complete EN database, and every piece of software running on it. Or it would mean to change the database, and still rewrite the complete software plus having a performance issue.

Currently the relation between a note and a notebook is a 1:n - Relation. One note belongs to exactly one notebook, and one notebook can contain a large number of notes, but only in this single notebook. No single note can exist in another notebook at the same time. This quite basic and easy to read.

If you go nesting, this changes to n:m, which in a database is the most complex relation, in need of an additional table that contains the links / relations  between the objects. It is much more difficult to read by software, and performance sucks if you do not take additional measures.

The creation of multi-dimensional links between notes in EN is done by tagging, which is much stronger than any notebook-nesting, and is fully supported by the EN software including the EN search logic.

It is as simple as that: Who believes he needs nesting of notebooks, is not working with EN, he is working against the EN program structure. Such a person should probably go somewhere else, or learn how to use EN as it is designed.

P.S. Stacks are no example of how this could be done, because they were done by putting a „stack“ field into the header data of each notebook. This does not create a deep nesting, and even this „cheap“ 1-level-nesting is even today not really supported by the EN software. Stacks are visible, but they do not serve to organize information logically.

[metaview2012 1]

Well, it's not like Evernote's software engineers are volunteers.  Every improvement takes work, and everything technical can be described as almost impossible by someone who doesn't want to do it.  Changes on the back end that require changes on the front end are why software companies publish updates.  It's done all the time.

[DTLow 5,736]

6 hours ago, metaview2012 said:

Every improvement takes work, and everything technical can be described as almost impossible by someone who doesn't want to do it.

A notebook hierarchy is not impossible
This is proven technology - Evernote has already implemented an unlimited hierarchy for the Tag field

I think the "doesn't want to do it" is correct
Notebooks and Tags serve different purposes in the Evernote design

>>I happen to need hierarchical notes.  

I also need a hierarchical organization for my notes

>>If Evernote doesn't want to provide that ....

Evernote provides an unlimited hierarchy (Tag field)

>>My points stand.

"But hey, defend it all you want.  I'm glad you're happy with it. "

>>alternative that includes a deeper hierarchy than stack/notebook/notes

The Tag feature includes a deeper hierarchy; unlimited levels

[metaview2012 1]

"...in the Evernote environment"... as it is, that is.  For organization of notes and information, users can benefit from both.  It's not an either/or choice, and tags DO NOT replace notebook hierarchy in information organization.  "The Evernote environment" has undergone many changes and improvements over the years.  There's nothing sacrosanct, nor deeply philosophical, about its current configuration.  But hey, defend it all you want.  I'm glad you're happy with it.  I happen to need hierarchical notes.  If Evernote doesn't want to provide that, I'll find it another product/service that will, and stop paying Evernote to be my primary notes handler.

[metaview2012 1]

You're repeating yourself.  I get it.  My points stand.

[gazumped 11,664]

1 hour ago, metaview2012 said:

You're repeating yourself.  I get it.  My points stand.

? 

1 hour ago, metaview2012 said:

"The Evernote environment" has undergone many changes and improvements over the years.

Actually,  I'm not sure that it has - Notes and tags is what you have,  which are the structure within which - currently - you need to arrange your notes.  It would be.. optimistic.. to expect that this will change in the short to medium term...

 

[metaview2012 1]

I agree.  There is no reason to expect anything new from Evernote since it doesn't interact with suggestions on its discussions board.  That's one reason I'm looking around for an alternative that includes a deeper hierarchy than stack/notebook/notes.  I've been looking at Notion.so ...which has some interesting features including the kind of hierarchy I'm looking for.  But it's still new, slow to load, doesn't handle offline conditions well (though it acknowledges user requests and says it is working on improvements to offline use), and it doesn't yet have a content clipper for Safari or the Mac, in general.  But at least it doesn't give stone silence to users' requests and concerns the way Evernote does.

So I'm still looking.  I realize no software/service is going to be perfect, but I don't require perfection, just the basics, really.  Unless Evernote surprises those who have been asking for true hierarchical notes organization features for years with such an update, I'll convert away from it as soon as I locate a viable alternative.  Meanwhile, I'm using Notion.so for the project I had in mind, and it works well for that.

[RJLUK 307]

I've been a Evernote user for 8 years now. I must have looked at EVERY alternative ( Notion, Onenote, Dropbox, Apple Notes,Joplin,Bear) for use on apple devices and web and have stuck with Evernote. Why? Because they now have history and almost any app will interact with it. It synchs instantaneously with all of my devices unlike Apple notes which is flakey and unreliable. Given the cost I don't mind shelling out.

The Evernote team do, like many, have a habit of developing what they THINK people want as opposed to what people want but many are like that- customer service seems to be well down the list of priorities.

I think rather than developing fancy new web interfaces they should strive to have the app capable of doing the SAME THINGS across all devices . For example I often gather together information for various projects and then Merge them into one document ......you cant do that on iOS/Web you can on Mac app. It is like trying to use three different versions of the same system.

Also some nice to haves.....

1. When will we ever be able to sort contents of Notebooks individually say for example alphabetically rather then having to sort whole data base? I has been asked for many times and requests been ignored.

2. When will we be able, if ever, to sort the contents of a notebook manually? Say for example you are writing a report and have 20 notes in a note book as chapters? I know all the theories about using tags etc but have people actually done that?- again asked for many times.

If Evernote wants to survive the next decade maybe they should mail shot everyone who has been using system consistently as a PAYING customer and ask them what they want what they think is missing? Then ACT on the requests /suggestions?

Bottom line is Evernote has worked for ten years - yes the system is not consistent across various devices but it is the best compromise available  IMHO.

Unless something better comes along I will stay with it- and I haven't found anything better so far.

not .......and before some self appointed forum "Guru" starts jumping up and down telling me I should be asking for options not available- do us all a favour and save your breath. As a paying customer I consider I have the right to comment on current system and request improvements.