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(Archived) The Death of Evernote 2.2 Features


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Folks,

Having spent nearly a year and a half to research the best time management tools, I am very concerned about the following posting:

From my discussion with Phil (CEO) a couple of weeks ago, and from everything I've seen here, I am confident in saying that EN is going in a new direction, primarily that of a data collection application. I'll bet that old-fashioned categories, now tags, are gone, as are templates and note links. I've seen no indication so far of any plan to restore these high-end features. I'd like to hear differently from EN.

Phil is an absolute technology genius and i can't imagine that they would kill the robust and high-end features in Evernote 2.2 just to make a web 2.0 compliant collection tool -- from what I can tell it would make the most sense to keep them both and integrate them into not just a web collection mechanism but also an full featured robust note taking and journal tool for work with tablet pcs and notetaking products like cyberpad.

Right now the preview release of the Evernote 3.0 seems to have some terrific features. I hope it can now also soon encompass the 2.2 features that make that such a terrific program. I would personally consider fully switching from OneNote for all my collection needs if they can pull this off.

I also really love the Evernote Mobile preview release which is incredible for viewing your evernote captures on your windows mobile pocket pc. But the new 3.0 compliant tool is missing some of these terrific advanced functionalities -- eventually they are supposed to merge. And my hope is they do this. However the jury has been out from the evernote team on all the features lost from 2.2 to 3.0.

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Please bring back the note linking feature (and maybe even improve it ala Gemx Do-Organizer or Jetbrains Omea) and any other advanced features.

Links should not occur directly in a note but be an attribute of the note itself like it is in Omea or Do-Organizer. Also, when one note is linked to another, the links should show up as attributes of both notes. This is my opinion on how note linking should operate.

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Please bring back the note linking feature (and maybe even improve it ala Gemx Do-Organizer or Jetbrains Omea) and any other advanced features.

Links should not occur directly in a note but be an attribute of the note itself like it is in Omea or Do-Organizer. Also, when one note is linked to another, the links should show up as attributes of both notes. This is my opinion on how note linking should operate.

Seconded. I'm less than thrilled with the direction of 3.0, but this software has helped me so much that I'm willing to give the developers the benefit of any doubt I have. However, I've got a lot of notes that are heavily interlinked, and cannot completely upgrade if I'd be losing those links.

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I completely agree. I use the linking feature to add file links within the program all the time. That is, I would drag a file (in this case, a programming file) into the Evernote window and it would make a nice little like there for me to make note of later. I also use tagging A LOT, although it seems like this is still a feature in EN, the online version handles it a bit oddly however.

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Personally I stopped using 3.0 after just 3 days, and went back to 2.2. I was getting annoyed with the feel of 3.0 and having to jump thru hoops to use the tags.

I'm not a veteran EN user, but from what I'm reading in blogs and forums, it seems like EN is going down a direction that they think will be cool, not what their users are asking for. /shrug .. I could be wrong though

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Well Evernote 2.2 is fantastic if they can combine the two with 3.0 we will have a killer application!!!

+1, though I don't think the ENteam sees it that way (unfortunately). Instead of building 3.0's strengths (sync, capture) onto 2.2.1's strengths (essentially everything else), they seem to have decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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+1, though I don't think the ENteam sees it that way (unfortunately). Instead of building 3.0's strengths (sync, capture) onto 2.2.1's strengths (essentially everything else), they seem to have decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

That would be unfortunate, but if that's the course they want to take, at least we've got 2.2.1.

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Saw a great speaker years ago - Guy Kawasaki - who covered this subject in one of his books (Rules for Refolutionaries?). To paraphrase - you can make the greatest widget in the world, but if no one wants it, your doomed. If your customers are asking for specific features / enhancements and you refuse to give it to them, someone else will build it and happily sell it to them.

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Hi

Just stumbled upon EN whilst looking for apps which I can use to gather information. I downloaded EN 2.2. and had a quick play with it and initial impression is WOW! At present I use OneNote to gather my information. It is OK but EN looks more friendly to use and more powerful. I don't know how EN compares with others as I don't know what the competition is to know.

I am concerned by the comments on Version 3 though. Sounds like a backward step and I would probably stick with EN 2.2 once I have decided to migrate from OneNote. BTW is there a way of migrating data from OneNote?

Regards

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Really alarmed by this thread. I had always assumed EN3 would have (at least) everything EN2 had, but the developers just hadn't got there yet. The syncing functionality in 3 is a godsend but at the expense of the so called 'high end features'? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is indeed the perfect expression here. As it currently stands, EN3 doesn't offer much over Google Notebook, which is really disappointing.

Changing the term "categories" to "tags" is fair enough and very trendy, but why ditch the very useful and usable icons? This is a reactive change to current trends that is a backward step rather than a true usability enhancement.

Why ditch templates? I see absolutely no reason for that.

Finally, why ditch note links? These are/were incredibly useful.

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I keep reminding myself of what Phil said here...

First of all, it's an early beta. Many features are still not implemented and will be added in the next couple of months. In addition to the many new capabilities, all of the "core" 2.2 functionality will be present in Evernote.

Note that he said ALL of the core functionality. That's promising. Note also that he puts the word "core" in quotation marks, perhaps implying more than a little bit of selectivity in defining what the core features of EN2.2 really are. The power users are already dancing with the marketers and developers over what "core" should mean. Who knows what "core" will ultimately include. The next two months will be interesting.

Dave

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I keep reminding myself of what Phil said here...

First of all, it's an early beta. Many features are still not implemented and will be added in the next couple of months. In addition to the many new capabilities, all of the "core" 2.2 functionality will be present in Evernote.

Note that he said ALL of the core functionality. That's promising. Note also that he puts the word "core" in quotation marks, perhaps implying more than a little bit of selectivity in defining what the core features of EN2.2 really are. The power users are already dancing with the marketers and developers over what "core" should mean. Who knows what "core" will ultimately include. The next two months will be interesting.

Dave

We have rather different interpretations of Phil's post. Core, in quotes, could be interpreted as almost anything. That could be storing data, which 3.0 already does.

I have noticed that when old features are requested by users, in some cases, the development team rushes to reply, "Don't worry, be happy, it's coming soon". And it does. In other cases, like note links and templates, they remain silent so far. My interpretation is that this does not bode well for us "power users" who want something much more like what 2.2 was.

In my conversation with Phil and Andy a couple of months ago, I felt that they were in denial about what the "power users" want and need. They seemed to believe, or to want to believe, that if they coaxed us along enough, sugar-coated this whole thing, that we'd jump on board eventually and be one big happy EN family again. I can't speak for others (though I can surmise), but for me, it's not gonna happen. I use the advanced features of EN every day here at work, and 3.0 simply doesn't meet my needs at this time. I'm keeping my eyes open as it develops, but am becoming increasingly skeptical that it will again approach the functionality of 2.2 in the forseeable future. :(

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It's truly sad, salgud.

Though not a very vocal user, I've used Evernote on and off for quite a long time. I was a beta tester when Evernote was first introduced - back before the very first release. I will admit that I did abandon it for a while. At the time of the first release it appeared (at least to me) that Evernote was going strongly toward tablet users - which is certainly not a bad thing... (I have always wanted a tablet but could never afford to take the "chance" and spend all that $$$ on one when it was not a necessity for me; just a strong "want".) But as I started to say, it appeared to me that they were moving strongly toward primarily supporting ink rather than note-taking for non-ink users.

So I have gone through a plethora of other notes applications -- I have four others besides Evernote installed on my main desktop box now -- but I kept coming back to Evernotes and thus have the largest database of notes and clippings in Evernote. (Though my OneNote 2007 database is pretty close in size).

However this version I am getting that same feeling I got just prior to the initial release of Evernotes, when I feared they were turning away from regular note-taking toward ink-only features. I was wrong then and I truly hope I am wrong now. But it does appear that they are hell-bent on becoming as pure a web-based, content-sharing application as any out there. And I don't think that they will continue to support EN 2.2 for very long, either. Hopefully I am way off in that belief, but I have a feeling that is why the admin and mods are so silent on such issues. I think that as soon as they come to a decision point where they must decide to devote some resources to either the EN 3 format or EN 2.2, we will see just how fast they make such a decision - and just how fast they drop EN 2.2 altogether.

Let's face it: if a large enough part of their user base decides to stick with EN 2.2, all the money that they would otherwise derive from upgrade sales from those users is gone. Forever -- or until they decide to inject EN 2.2 features into EN 3 after all. They will stay with the money making version, and there is no way to make any more money from EN 2.2. Period.

So..... Anyone tried any other note-taking programs lately?

Jim

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I just bought EN 2.2 in the last big sale (btw. I asked if there will be a new version soon, see the answer below :( ). I bought it because of the tags, the note linking and the template stuff and the pda client...

I really like the perspective to have the notebooks and my stuff online and on my pda, but not without the features mentioned above.

Now here is the reply regarding if there will be a new version (btw. I am disappointed how customers are treated):

Dear Frank,

It meant an online service, we are currently preparing for the beta trial and has no relation to the desktop software.

We don't currently plan for any upgrade in the nearest future.

Hope that helps.

With best regards,

EverNote Customer Support

-----Original Message-----

From: Frank Müller [mailto]

Sent: None

To: Info EverNote

Subject: [EverNote Contact ] General Question

Message-Id: <20080205101046.21E9E34149@localhost.localdomain>

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 02:10:46 -0800 (PST)

Return-Path: www-data@io.evernote.com

X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Feb 2008 10:10:46.0278 (UTC) FILETIME=[5FCE4260]

Name: Frank Müller

Email:

Submitted a Contact General Question on 2008-02-05 2:10:46

Comment: Hi,

I am really interested in EverNote and Evernote for WM5, but I saw the \"Big things are coming\" note on the homepage and wondered if there will be an upgrade if I buy Evernote now or if its better to wait for the next version and live with the trial for this time.

Btw is there a way to use the trial in german?

Thank you

F. Müller

Phone:

EverNote: on

Ip: 84.188.209.138

Feedback ID:

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So..... Anyone tried any other note-taking programs lately?

The short answer is that (based on the gloomy assumption that EN is rapidly going off the rails) I have been obsessively trying out dozens of note-taking programs, and none seems as good as EN.

There is one particular feature in EN that I can't live without: being able to open several notes simultaneously in separate windows while I write. That's a difficult thing to find in note-taking software. So far, I've spotted it only in the following:

(1) OneNote. You do it by by the "New window" command. I used OneNote for about a year, but I really don't want to go back to it if I can avoid it.

(2) Zoot. An amazing program that does everything but cook dinner, and it can create something very much like EN's out-of-tape notes. But Zoot is still plain-text, has the look of an early 1990s program, is seriously weird in some ways, and has a user-hostile interface.

(3) Oddly enough, the program that handles multiple-notes best is UltraEdit, which certainly isn't intended to be note-taking software. In UE you can have as many notes open simultaneously as you want, and the program allows you to manipulate them and position them on the screen with absolute ease. I've done a long series of experiments with UE, and I think that in an emergency I could use it for note-taking, but of course it lacks all sorts of features that EN has: (a) No text formatting to speak of. (:( No images (though you can link to websites and external files). © Each note is a separate file, so even when you set up a project, it's difficult to keep track of all those pesky little files. (d) No boolean searches. And the searches across files are awkward. (e) And of course no tags or categories. -- But at least UltraEdit is a serious, stable program, intended for real tasks, and it's not likely to give me a nasty little shock in the future by suddenly going bonkers over snapshots of business cards and wine labels.

So there it stands for me at the moment. I'll stick with EN until I find something better, but, like many others on this forum, I'm in a state of unrelieved gloom about the direction the management is taking.

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I've been going back and forth between Evernote and OneNote, lately using mostly OneNote 2007 (since I already had Office 2007).

If the "high-end" features like linking are gone forever (or for the foreseeable future) in EN3, then I may still dabble with version 3, but it just won't have the power to be my real note/PIM/organizer program, unfortunately. And if EN2.2 is orphaned, maybe it'll be time to move exclusively to OneNote, which does have its own set of advantages (superior in-note formatting, with tables, e.g.).

But if EN3 were to regain EN2.X features, then its new web incarnation could give it a big leg up over ON2007 and every other rival I know of.

I sure hope the latter is the case, as do most all of the more-dedicated EN users, I'd wager. Otherwise, what an earlier poster noted seems right to me: EN3 will strike a lot of people as a glorified but riskier (since non-Google [so will the company be around?], and maybe non-free in the future) version of Google Notebook. (Now if EN is purchased by Google, great, of course. :( )

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I struggled a lot with this too... I agonized over which one to pick, and ended up using both EverNote and OneNote for many months. I didn't want to split all my stuff between the two, so I settled on OneNote at the time. All of the reasons and detailed comparisons are here: http://manage-this.com/evernote-vs-onenote/

When EverNote added Google Desktop Search capability, I seriously considered switching back, but then saw the "big changes coming" note as well. There is a lot of stuff I don't like about OneNote, for example mangled web clippings, and the fact that it wants to launch the whole program everytime you clip something as if to say, "hey, look what I did!". And I have to respond by saying "yes, yes, nice job OneNote, now go back to your task bar and wait for another clipping... click".

If some of the EverNote 2.2 feature are brought forward (esp. some form of auto categories), there will be a slightly used copy of OneNote along with its original packing available on eBay.

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OneNote does audio search very well too.

When EN was a database of notes I pref'ed EN. But now that EN is becoming just a note *taking* app, I'm looking elsewhere again. OneNote does have a much better editor, free form entry on the page. For note *taking* it is clearly better than EN3.

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I, too, am not overly happy with what I've seen in the beta. If I had NEVER USED either EverNote or OneNote, it would probably be ok as I would not know better. However, if the current incarnation of the beta is anywhere close to 'gold' release, I'm not upgrading. I'll stick with 2.2 or plunk down the $99 and get another license for OneNote to use in my job. I use OneNote exclusively for my personal life, since it came with Office 2007. I bought EverNote for work since it was easy and versatile and the price was right. I rely on the templates and linking very heavily-both of which OneNote can do too-and version 3 (as it stands) just does not cut. While I can see some value to the web stuff, it is just not that big a deal for me. I cannot put my work related info out there anyway because of the potential for security issues (I am but a programmer, but some of my work does involve proprietary company information.) And since I sit right next to our information security group, that would not be a wise career move. I'm more interested in pda/smartphone integration than being able to pull up my notebook from a library computer in the middle of nowhere.

I've heard Leo Laporte talk up the beta on his radio show and podcasts. He and the new folks who see the product based on his comments will do more harm to the product by validating EverNote's developers thinking. Sadly, I think this could kill the features that make EverNote so great now. The silence from them on the templates and linking (unless I missed it) is deafening.

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Onenote is an interesting program and it has the two things I need most which have been orphaned in this beta - note/category links and local file links.

But Onenote has a frustrating design which forces you into the metaphor of a tabbed binder (I'm admittedly not a Onenote power user so there may be a way around this). Where ENote kicks OneNote's but is when you have hundreds of proliferating categories (er tags) and need to jump between them fast. Onenote just doesnt seem to scale well.

Sadly there is no off-the-shelf replacement for 2.x out there yet.

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Onenote is an interesting program and it has the two things I need most which have been orphaned in this beta - note/category links and local file links.

But Onenote has a frustrating design which forces you into the metaphor of a tabbed binder (I'm admittedly not a Onenote power user so there may be a way around this). Where ENote kicks OneNote's but is when you have hundreds of proliferating categories (er tags) and need to jump between them fast. Onenote just doesnt seem to scale well.

I agree that lack of the "Category Intersection" panel has no corresponding feature in OneNote 2007, but as for the tabbed binder format, personally I don't find that anymore odd or unusual than EN's Tape format. I'm not particularly fond of either format, but then again neither is really detrimental to their respective usage. (A plain, old tree format --like in KeyNote" -- is best as far as I am concerned).

Sadly there is no off-the-shelf replacement for 2.x out there yet.

Key word: Yet. If the demand for EN 2.2 features remains as strong as it is now, and the EN honchos stop supporting it, you can bet good money that someone will jump on that bandwagon and deliver something comparable. If there is money to be made with that note format, someone will be happy to sell it to us!

Jim

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But Onenote has a frustrating design which forces you into the metaphor of a tabbed binder (I'm admittedly not a Onenote power user so there may be a way around this).

Don't mind it myself, though I'd like more flexibility, but there is a Treeview plugin that gives 3 levels in the tree (notebook, section, page).

But as a user of both ON and EN, I don't see them as competitors. I use EN for basically chaotic material and On for stuff that is basically organised.

I do see 2.2 & 3 as competitors & for 95% of the stuff I'd want to use EN for it is 2.2 that wins.

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If they remove the "2.2" features they are basically entering the same market as Google notebook (besides character recognition, and offline availability) a move which would be plain silly.

I'll keep 3.0 installed some more and see how it evolves, I really don't have an alternative anyway at this point in time (that is, I do but it has a hierarchical structure and that's the reason why I turned to evernote to start with).

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I'm really taken with http://www.thebrain.com for organizing knowledge and information. Capturing info is a bit harder. Drag a URL into the plex and it's captured (including full text search on the content) but if you want to have a cached copy in case the content disappears you have to copy and paste.

The biggest limitation of TheBrain is that everything has to be tied to at least one other thought. I find it very useful for organizing inter-related thoughts. For more or less random, miscellaneous information, I find EN 2.2 much better. YMMV.

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The personalbrain is not really a good replacement for evernote (I've used it for years), something like a normal webclipper is more suited, but nobody clips as fast, as intuitively, as ubiquitously as evernote....

but then... if you clip fast you need to "classify" fast and that's where we need the fancy features, intersections, saved searches nested or mixed with tags. Forcing to flat every note out (no hierarchies) and splitting keyword tags (saved searches) from other tags it's innatural, it's a "developer" approach to manage information...

anyway...

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@salgud I usually tie a thought to something, even if called Inbox or so. But people also make thoughts, than unlink them.

@zinoff EN's clipper is excellent. But if I *have* to apply categories manually I rather do it in thebrain than in EN. Auto-categories, hey, that's something else :)

TheBrain has been around for 10 years. So I trust it to stay around and get better - not something different the way happened with EN. Tags are already in place in PB, tag specigic search to be implemented.

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@salgud I usually tie a thought to something, even if called Inbox or so. But people also make thoughts, than unlink them.

@zinoff EN's clipper is excellent. But if I *have* to apply categories manually I rather do it in thebrain than in EN. Auto-categories, hey, that's something else :)

TheBrain has been around for 10 years. So I trust it to stay around and get better - not something different the way happened with EN. Tags are already in place in PB, tag specigic search to be implemented.

Yes, it's been around a while, but how long was it between 2.x and 3.0? Years!! And then a lot of features were lost or broken in 3.0. I was pretty dissappointed when I started working with it. Not as dissappointed as I've been with EN3.0, but still unhappy.

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I have been a failthful EN user for some time. I love using 2.2 and even dabbled in creating my own templates now and again. I jumped at the chance to use 3.0 and was shocked at what is missing. The things I want to see back in the product are:

[*]Tag rules

[*]Custom templates (I created many "forms" for certain kinds of information)

[*]A custom template editor (for the aforementioned custom templates)

[*]Auto tagging parent tags when a child tag is added to a note

[*]This is a small thing, but when I create a new tag and intend it to be a child of an existing tag, I should be able to right click on the parent and have the child relationship automatically established when the new tag is created. Now I have to create it and then move it under the proper parent tag.

I have been giving serious thought to see if I could get what I need out of ZuluPad. I like the wiki paradigm, but until the support full HTML and allow the creation of forms, it probably won't cut it either.

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My two cents on "The Brain”... I took a look a while back. It looked interesting at first, but to get the features I would want (search, Outlook integration, multiple file attachments, export capability, etc) it seems I would have to buy the Pro edition. The price tag on that is $249! :shock: Outrageous! Even stepping down to the core edition at $149 is still well above my threshold of pain. I didn’t bother downloading the free version since it lacks those basic features.

It's tough to compete with the FREE version of EverNote. For their middle of the road "core" edition, TheBrain even priced themselves more than 2x above Microsoft OneNote, which sells for $72.99 Amazon. I just don't see it.

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I've been using PersonalBrain for a while now. I have the Pro version at work and the free version at home and I love it. However, it is quite a different beast from Evernote. I use PersonalBrain to organise and visualise complex issues - for project management etc. I sort of use it for mind mapping but not so much.

I came across Evernote when trying to find a cheaper option for the excellent OneNote. I use OneNote at work and Evernote at home and find them both indispensable. I use them as dumping grounds for bits of information that I need to keep - just like clever post-it notes really - but very clever ones!

Evernote 2.2 is fantastic. I panicked when they changed the home page of the site to the 3.0 Beta as its web based and I hate these unreliable things. Now I've read a bit more I can see that there could certainly be uses for being able to upload things to the web - though I would want to be able to pick and choose which things these were. I don't want personal/confidential/commercial information wandering around the cloud. It needs a check box and only notes with the checkbox checked get uploaded.

What I really want is to be able to use EN2.2 on my Mac and PC with a single database. This is what I do with PersonalBrain. The database lives on my Mac laptop and I either open it locally on that or over the network on my PC. Fantastic. What we have here isn't quite the same I don't think.

Plus, I can't seem to get clipping working on the Mac. Early days I think. I'll be staying with 2.2 for now

Andy

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Andy, I'd love to hear more then about your take on OneNote.

For both organized, connected data and "just a bunch of nebulous data" I find TheBrain pretty OK. Btw, if you have Pro at work you can have it free at work: license allows 2 (or 3?) installs. If you make the second one USB flash/thumb drive....

Of course synced access is great. But for temp. note capturing I already *have* options. I use Google Notebook, Google mail (via their toolbar). delicious. Than it goes into my own database. I don't need yet another web based service in that regard.

Web-based, synced database: yes.

web-based synced note capturing: are you mad?!

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Hi Wbroek.

I got from Personal Brain to OneNote and from OneNote to Evernote. I needed something a bit more free-form than PersonalBrain where I could just jot down things I was thinking of or had found, and organise them visually. Specifically, I wanted to be able to jot down some thoughts I was having about a project, link them together visually and move them about to help crystallise my thoughts. PersonalBrain is fantastic, but it has a fairly rigid tree structure which was not what I wanted at that moment.

I had recently installed Office 2007 on my work PC (I'm in IT so get to put what I like on it) and came across the 'send to OneNote' icon in Outlook. I didn't know what that was so clicked it, and the rest is history. OneNote allows you to type anywhere on a page - which is just what I needed - without fiddling about with formatting. You just click where you like and type (you can do this with an Ink Note in Evernote, of course). It has a more structured organisation of notes than Evernote - you are encouraged to place things in in notebooks which you name. But you can still search anywhere. It also accepts images and the clipper is great - I find universal clipper somewhat unreliable in Evernote 2.2. Actually, my main use for OneNote is in capturing custom screenshots for emails or documents I am working on. You can also password protect some or all of your OneNote notebooks which is a real asset.

One thing that I discovered recently in OneNote is that, not only can you search text in a clip (as with Evernote) but you can copy that text and paste it elsewhere - instant OCR! Fantastic. Its far from foolproof at the moment but what a feature! I'd really like to see that in Evernote. If it can recognise text, you'd think it would be easy enough for it to take a copy of it.

OneNote also has some very clever sound recording capabilities where you can link documents to certain parts of the audio clip. I think it will also search within audio clips. Downsides to OneNote are that it seems to eat up system resources sometimes. The text boxes it uses to allow freeform typing can get fiddly to work with if you want to edit and tidy up your doodlings. Finally, as it comes as part of Office, its quite expensive.

This final point is what led me to Evernote. Google brought me to it and it does pretty much everything I need. I must admit, I'm probably a bit more comfortable with the OneNote system of named Notebooks to store individual notes. You can still search everything but they are already arranged logically. With the ribbon approach, you basically have to search (or filter) to find anything. I see that the Mac version of 3.0 beta is different. Maybe this will be a best of all worlds. Evernote 2.2 also has a rather old fashioned GUI, to my mind. The 3.0 beta is much nicer though.

Advantages of Evernote - well its free or very cheap, depending which you use. It allows you to filter and categorise, and it is very easy to use. It also has a strong and vocal user community providing help and advice through its forums!

I'm not an expert of OneNote or Evernote. These are just the things that I have found in casual use of them. I'd hate to live without them.

Andy

PS: I have been toying with using the second PersonalBrain license at home but I feel a bit guilty using work licenses at home. Also, I would need two more - one for the PC, one for the Mac. I'll probably buy it eventually, though its very expensive.

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Thanks Andy!

So now you use all 3 of them?

OneNote's structure is quite good. Nice for projects, things like that. Can become a bit "big" when you have large topics. Beautiful and solid program though.

And yes, PersonalBrain seems to have a tree structure; it's very easy to start using it that way. But the idea is to connect thoughts as much as possible, associate, link. Some people have described it as a visual wiki.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply; I love reading and learning about how othrs process information

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I've been using both Evernote and OneNote 2007 for almost a year together. I'm currently still using both but I'm trying to get OneNote 2007 configured as close to what I want in case EN 2.2 goes away before I'm ready.

Currently there are things that I clip - from both the web and other programs - that are better in one or the other. Anytime I want a clip of something in another application on my PC, OneNote gets that job. Also, some pages on the web can't be clipped by Evernote - ever get that "Cannot clip selected area. Do you want to capture the entire web page?" dialog? I just automatically use OneNote 2007 for anything like that. Also anytime I want to clip text that is part of a graphic I use OneNote. It searches the text in images better than anything else, IMO.

Jim

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I'm currently still using both but I'm trying to get OneNote 2007 configured as close to what I want in case EN 2.2 goes away before I'm ready.
Do you want to capture the entire web page?" dialog? I just automatically use OneNote 2007 for anything like that. Also anytime I want to clip text that is part of a graphic I use OneNote. It searches the text in images better than anything else

Experienced users packing up to jump...Developers should take note.

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Now I've had a chance to actually play with the 3.0 beta I'm actually feeling a bit happier - though I still would need some features returned for it to fully meet my needs. I'll do a full post - probably under a new thread, when I've had a chance to consider my thoughts.

btw - I see that Evernote are now following users on Twitter!

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As a new user, I thought I might as well throw in an unsolicited opinion that Evernote 3 retain (or improve upon) the ability to link to notes or local system files. It's absolutely critical to me. A much better solution would be if files (PDF, word docs etc.) could be attached to notes, like you might see in an e-mail program.

My workflow involves the creation of content, which I hoped to manage with Evernote, but since I need to somehow link my sources of information (which isn't just Web sites) to the notes, Evernote 3 doesn't do me much good.

I'll note that since you all are planning to eventually implement premium pricing (viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5988)... Attachments would be a good way to create a demand for more space!

Otherwise a strong program, keep it up.

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I have noticed that when old features are requested by users, in some cases, the development team rushes to reply, "Don't worry, be happy, it's coming soon". And it does. In other cases, like note links and templates, they remain silent so far. My interpretation is that this does not bode well for us "power users" who want something much more like what 2.2 was.

Yup. As much as I like the ubiquitous capture of EN3.0b, the categorization and recall features aren't where I need them to be. And I am not convinced that this is a priority for anyone at EN, who instead seem to espouse the "capture! capture! capture! and never sort it out!" route, which does not suit my needs.

In my conversation with Phil and Andy a couple of months ago, I felt that they were in denial about what the "power users" want and need. They seemed to believe, or to want to believe, that if they coaxed us along enough, sugar-coated this whole thing, that we'd jump on board eventually and be one big happy EN family again. I can't speak for others (though I can surmise), but for me, it's not gonna happen. I use the advanced features of EN every day here at work, and 3.0 simply doesn't meet my needs at this time. I'm keeping my eyes open as it develops, but am becoming increasingly skeptical that it will again approach the functionality of 2.2 in the forseeable future. :)

[bold mine]

Agreed, sadly.

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I took a peek again at Onenote 2007 as a result of my sadness (much echoed in these forums) on the watering down of EN3.0. No good- OneNote feels clunky and bloated with an interface locked into the metaphor of a 3 ring binder (which didnt even do a very good job of organizing my life in Jr High School). Thus, there really is no competition for Evernote - at least if/until the BasketNotes project matures. Perhaps the Enote team could help us poor devoted and locked-in souls with a hint at when the API for Evernote 3.x will be opened up. Even if not officially supported, I have a feeling most of what people want can be re-implemented without too much trouble once this happens.

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As a new user, I thought I might as well throw in an unsolicited opinion that Evernote 3 retain (or improve upon) the ability to link to notes or local system files. It's absolutely critical to me. A much better solution would be if files (PDF, word docs etc.) could be attached to notes, like you might see in an e-mail program.

Will also shout out in support of this sentiment. Local file links are a trivial implementation exercise even if the developer team finds them conceptually at odds with their cloud metaphor. For those of us who use them, they are 50% of the value of Evernote - and a way to make this product much more useful without us having to keep actual file attachements on your servers.

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I'll continue using EN as a notepad, thebrain as my knowledge tool. It has instant search in titles, extremely good search across notes, it can link OR embed files *and* search within those files, it can automatically download the text of a webpage which URL has been dropped "in the plex" so that that too is available for complete search.

The parent, child and "related" or "jump" thoughts make every thought a part of the larger whole. I also use its tagging, the use of which will be enhanced in the future.

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Dear all

I have been trying TheBrain, OneNote, Infohandler etc... But the truth is that it is EverNote I wish to defend and keep... I think this is not the place for discussing other software but to make our voice loud and make the EN Team listen to us.

So let us come back to the main issue: The death of 2.2

The good news is that there is still time to defend it and here is the place!!!

Lets ask ourselves som questions and perhaps open a new thread:

Do we need a Web Based En???

Would we trust a Web Based En???

Would we use a Web Based En???

My personal answer fo the three of them is: NO

Although I am Waiting for a repository on the web, incremental backups etc, I will NOT put my work on the web. Security and confdentiality ARE an issue here.

If I had to keep notes on the web, it would be a very small subset, Say one or two session, and at the first oportunity, i would bring them back to my main computer.

With 3.0 we are in a bad position as the web base notetaking could be ok just for trivial things, it is our computer version we are loosing for a lousy implementation.

Not a Good Thing!!!!!!!!

So, what about the three questions and our demands?

It is still time.

Perhaps new users will be happy with the illusion 3.0 gives but my guess is that they will find soon enough it is of no use for serious work.

And remember, there will be far more intelligent systems for web stuff than 3.0

But not as many so smart as 2.2.1

LET US FIGHT!!!!

Regards

Tom

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Lets ask ourselves som questions and perhaps open a new thread:

Do we need a Web Based En???

Would we trust a Web Based En???

Would we use a Web Based En???

My personal answer fo the three of them is: NO

My answer to the three of them is NO, also. I am simply not comfortable storing my brain on the Internet, and am willing to give up being able to access my ENbases from anywhere in favor of security. I've told EverNote that since waaaay back in the my.evernote.com days (remember that?).

I want to be able to access my ENbases from a (very) few selected locations/devices only (stored on a USB stick (accessible via desktop installation or portable) or on my PDA). I am willing to jump through a few hoops to make that happen (what about PayPal's security key (https://www.paypal.com/securitykey) & EverNote?).

I'd REALLY like to be able to serve EverNote files from my home server (running Linux, but if they released Windows-only server software, I could accomodate that). That removes the liability of data security and the burden of storage space from EverNote and puts it squarely on my shoulders (which I am willing to accept). However, it also removes the revenue stream from EverNote, so they won't do that.

I admire and applaud your desire to fight for EverNote 2.2.1, but I feel fairly secure saying that 2.2.1 is no longer being actively developed, with all attention directed instead at Evernot3 (I would adore being proven wrong in this assertion). Still, I suppose we could raise our voices and see what happens. Count me among the "fighters", then.

Here's the thing... If we get frustrated enough with Evernot3, we'll leave. But we'll be replaced with users with lower usage requirements (who pay for the service). Seems like a "win" for EverNote -- get rid of the power users with their demands and replace them with users happy to pay for less. Not sure there is a value proposition for EverNote to listen to us.

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This thread is so depressing! I don't know what I'm going to do if EN doesn't pull it together and add back some of the features that make EN great; I won't go into them here b/c everyone has done such a great job of detailing them already. Suffice it to say, another EN user who wants 2.2 functionality in 3.0

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Another user concerned with the direction that Evernote is taking. Categories with filter searches and file links are both critical to how I have come to use Evernote to document my engineering work. I hope that they find their way back into the software.

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The addition of web-based: fine. Make it optional though. On a per note basis. I need to store my bank account login info *somewhere*; think I'm going to do it on the web? Think not....

Do I like computer-ubiquitous capture? Sure! I have it here at home via my LAN using the sync feature in 2.2.1.

But I dearly miss intelligent categories: to argue it is easier for users to NOT have the ability to have notes AUTOMATICALLY tagged as they wish is.... unreasonable.

And regarding the LAN sync: I want to keep that. I have a future to think about. Evernote the company might not exist in that future, having gone under from making Google Notebook 2. Or the mortgage crisis might hit my company, I'm laid off and Internet isn't in my budget. How the freak am I going to sync then?

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Demanding that they stay with 2.2?? Sure - just give them a way that they can make any more money with 2.2!

They sure aren't going to just drop the web-based UI and stick with the old one. They'd go out of business.

I don't think "demanding" will help...

Jim

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Demanding that they stay with 2.2?? Sure - just give them a way that they can make any more money with 2.2!

They sure aren't going to just drop the web-based UI and stick with the old one. They'd go out of business.

I don't think "demanding" will help...

Jim

I can't get behind a "fighting" or "demanding" posture. Phil is the CEO of a profit based corporation, not an elected official (not that that makes any difference these days). We can suggest, implore, beg, entreat them to go our way, but they've already spend a lot of money to change course, and they'd be admitting they made a mistake if they turned back. Not likely, in my experience.

I found this article from November of last year in a Google search for "Evernote venture capital" today.

http://blog.insiderchatter.com/2007/11/ ... interview/

It didn't make me feel any better about the situation. To quote Phil:

Libin hails a three-prong EverNote competitive value proposiiton:

1) Focus on instant, effortless capturing,

2) Unmatched recognition and search quality,

3) Access-from-anywhere service model.

This is a very good description of EN3.0, isn't it?

And

Pachikov told me EverNote addresses broader human needs than single platform, (not so) simple “note-taking” applications: “The big players make complicated systems that require time and planning to use effectively.”

That last bit about systems that require time and planning to use effectively sounds like EN2.2, doesn't it? The rest of the article substantiates this new model for EN, including taking pictures of wine labels yet again. :?

What's equally disturbing to me, perhaps even more disturbing, is that I can't find any announcement about this article in this forum, only a reference to it in a "General Discussion" thread. Why would that be? EN management is usually so eager to post any publicity garnered by their PR department, why not this one? :?

In any case, both Phil and Stepan have publicly stated where they are taking EN. And this on the heels of receiving some serious VC funding. I don't think they could reverse themselves at this point if they wanted to.

I've been holding back a while making my decision. Today, I've made it. I'm going to work with 2.2 as long as it's viable, and hope that by then, someone will pick up the slack and create a suitable replacement app with similar features. EN3 is just not what I need. If I'm ever in Paris, and want to snap a pic of a wine bottle label, I'll probably regret my decison. :) But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it! For those that can use 3.0's feature set and don't need the features of 2.2, enjoy!

For my many compatriots who've helped me learn to use the great tool and suffered with me at it's demise, thanks! I'll continue to peruse these forums, but it's just not the same for me any more. I used to look forward to checking this forum a few times a day, but it's become more frustrating than enjoyable these last few months. I'll still keep up, even contribute what I can, but I'm getting real here and not pretending to believe that they're going to bring EN2.2 back. It's got all the features it will ever have, and will forever have the bugs it has now. I can live with that. Not happily, but such is life! I think most of my contributions will be in the old 2.1/2.2 forum rather than here.

I bear no ill-will toward the EN team, although I wish they had been more honest with us from the beginning. Egyptian queens, methinks! Now back to other things.

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salgud,

Nice post. And sadly, I believe you are correct. I've been trying to say it also but I didn't quite have the right words like you did.

Good luck! I have no doubt someone will see a market here and pick up what EN is dropping. It'll cost us all over again, but what the heck!

Take care.

Jim

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Me too.

Sigh. This used to be such a happy place. I now have an image of a bunch of silhouettes heading towards a sunset, carrying their belongings in little bundles over their shoulders. That would be the couple of handfuls of vocal power users leaving the building.

I continue to monitor the boards, but try not to say much about 3. Well, except for when I can't help myself. Personally, I turn it on about once a day in response to some post or question in the forum. Otherwise, it's off, off, off. Still using 2.2 all the time, and still loving every minute of it. But I admit, it's a bittersweet kind of love, knowing that it's days of development are over. Alas, poor 2.2! I knew him, Horatio...

:)

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I continue to monitor the boards, but try not to say much about 3. Well, except for when I can't help myself. Personally, I turn it on about once a day in response to some post or question in the forum. Otherwise, it's off, off, off. Still using 2.2 all the time, and still loving every minute of it. But I admit, it's a bittersweet kind of love, knowing that it's days of development are over. Alas, poor 2.2! I knew him, Horatio...

Bingo, sadly.

I *rely* on EverNote 2.2.1. It is deeply integrated into my life. I *tinker* with Evernot3, but I do not *use* it. The limitations (beta-introduced, temporary, & artificial as they may be), the limited storage, the limited number of notes, the storage of things in the cloud, and the missing "power" features from 2.2.1 on which I rely have made Evernot3 a sub-standard tool for my needs. The apparent lack of intention to implement those features is disheartening. They fixed what wasn't broke and broke what was fixed -- an odd mix, if you ask me (they did ask me and didn't listen to what I said!).

I wish I could take Evernot3's excellent capture & sync features so I could, um, capture all my wine labels, and capture into & sync with 2.2.1. (Or, said another way, that 2.2.1's excellent features could be integrated into 3.0's framework.) That would be a great scenario. Do I, even in my wildest dreams, think this will happen? Nope.

(On a side note, this evening, I DID actually shoot a photograph of (of all things) a wine label and sent it to Evernot3 from my smartphone. I nearly split my sides laughing when the AIR function failed to make searchable the text on the label!)

I had a heart-to-heart with Phil over the telephone a week or so ago. While I was very impressed that the Big Boss took time out of his schedule to talk with me, I was disheartened to hear what he had to say, and doubly-disheartened that some of the critical community action items he was going to "get right on" haven't happened. I feel abandoned and underappreciated as a "Guru". And I never got my t-shirt, either.

I'm running out of hearts to dishearten.

Damn. This is depressing. I've not felt so strongly about software as I did EverNote 2.2.1 in a looong time. It's sad to see it dying even though EverNote claims it is still supported (just out of curiosity, I wish EverNote would post the names & years of programming experience of the team member(s) who still have primary responsibility for 2.2.1).

I will keep an eye on Evernot3's development. I will keep an open mind and test each and every new release of 3.0. I continue to hope that 2.2.1's excellence will make its way into 3.0, despite direct evidence to the contrary from the team (and the silent treatment from them as well). In fact, beyond just hoping, I expect that 2.2.1's excellence will be implemented into 3.0. If/when 2.2.1's excellence is implemented, I will shout it from the rooftops and once again be EverNote's biggest supporter.

If not, I sadly ask, what will we do then?

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Well, look at it this way:

  • [*:a394d] Evernote 2.2 isn't, as far as I know, required to "call home" or continually activate on an EN server to keep functioning.
    [*:a394d] Working as it currently is - EN 2.2, that is - you all know it can do what you need it to do.
    [*:a394d] As long as you make sure that you keep your "full" EN 2.2 installer package you can continue to use EN 2.2 even when you get a new PC or have to reinstall your OS.
    [*:a394d] With this version you have what is most likely the last version of EN that you can use to store your notes databases on your own HDD's or servers, can use the intersection category panel, have unlimited saved searches, and all the other features specific to EN 2.2 that are not in EN 3.0.

Of course the down side includes:

  • [*:a394d] No new features will be added to EN 2.2. What you see is all you'll most likely ever get.
    [*:a394d] EN 2.2 should continue to run on Windows at least throughout the life of Windows XP and Vista. I can't say with Apple computers though - I am not up to speed with whether EN currently runs on Macs or what Mac OS release might be the end of that.

So it's not quite the end - EN 2.2 should continue to work for you as well as it does now until OS releases make it obsolete. And that won't happen in this decade and possibly not even in the next. And who knows, it may even work in the next generation of Operating Systems with a few tweaks!

Those who did not keep the "full" setup archive might need a little help - or consolation. And it would be great if, say, a Wiki was created for users of past versions of EN. 8)

My glass is at least more than half-full folks!

Jim

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I've been in the software industry for quite a while now, and I have to say other than arrogant monopolies like Microsoft and Apple, I'm not sure I've ever seen a company alienate their dedicated core of quite as much as EN seems to be doing with this upgrade. I read this entire thread hoping Phil or someone else from EN had posted in it saying "we're going to keep all the EN 2.2 functionality you rely on, so let's get together and build a comprehensive list so we can get it into the beta and have you help us test it" -- but no. What is going on? I feel like even though I really like EverNote 2.2 quite a bit, maybe I shouldn't have purchased this product because it's a dead-end (sure I can keep an installer around -- but what about when all the DLLs and other OS and app hooks are obsolete -- then what -- not to mention that I like the universal clipper in 3 so I want that plus the 2.2 features). The cloud metaphor is not one-size-fits-all, and this thread is full of useful EN 2.2 things EN 3 should do that seem to be getting ignored. What gives?

I agree with this list that was posted:

[*]Tag rules

[*]Custom templates (I created many "forms" for certain kinds of information)

[*]A custom template editor (for the aforementioned custom templates)

[*]Auto tagging parent tags when a child tag is added to a note

[*]This is a small thing, but when I create a new tag and intend it to be a child of an existing tag, I should be able to right click on the parent and have the child relationship automatically established when the new tag is created. Now I have to create it and then move it under the proper parent tag.

And would add: the restoration of "uncategorized" default ; the restoration of of all auto-categories / types (such as types based on source / content like image, Excel, etc.) ; attaching / linking to files (and I'd like to be able to tell EverNote not to put certain large files as an ASCII-encoded payload in its database by default, but rather to create storage location(s) by type or query me for location if I set that as an option) -- and as has been said a zillion times before by others, I don't want to be required to sync my data online to use the product.

(And probably other things I'm just not thinking of right now.)

Someone posted saying that EverNote has no incentive to cater to power users, because we'll go away and leave them with users who will pay more for less. Really? You think so? I don't. Only power users really buy this kind of software. Average users will use regular Web bookmarks in IE or Safari or Thunderbird and/or one or more of the FREE clipping (and pseudo-clippign) services that are either here or will be soon from the likes of Google, Yahoo!, Microsoft, digg, del.icio.us. Average users don't have extensive organizational needs for their clippings. Average users don't pay for storage for these kinds of services -- at least not yet, and I'm not betting they ever will unless it's prepackaged with a full hosting bundle.

Now, perhaps EN's goal is to sell themselves as a service module to add to such a prepackaged bundle at Yahoo! or Google, in which case maybe they'll happily ***** us professionals attempting to use this as a research and PIM tool, and do the bare minimum needed to pull off such a sale. But, I hope not, because 2.2 is a great product and I'd like to see 3.0 be better, not worse.

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I have been using evernote for some time. I really enjoy the program. I am not a power user, and when 2.2 came out, there went the custom templates. It was just a hassel to try to make them work in 2.2 so I thought about going back to evernote plus. Still had the installer. I am giving 3.0 a try, and running it parallel with 2.2. I know it is early, but sure miss the custom templates. They help me keep track of time and money. Neve had a problem with the clipper in plus, or 2.2. One thing about this company is the free program is really nice. May be in hind site they should have charged a small fee for the free one after the trial. Like anything new it will take getting use to, but once you do, it should be a great program. If the new program will fit my needs, and have the bells and so on. I will buy it. Lets hope the company really listens to feed back.

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This reminds me of a a similar situation was seen with the glorious ECCO pim from Netmanage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecco_Pro).

ECCO had brilliant ideas and concept, never to be seen again, a real winner. Then the company simply abbandoned it leaving alone so many loyal and shocked users.

Believe or not, there are still so many users (including myself), running the very last released version (now freely available) dated 1997 and finding it better than many new shining softwares.

Mario

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As sad as I am to see these changes I don't think EN has much choice. After reading the article\interview Drew referenced above, it's pretty clear (to me at least) EN has to find a larger market to survive.

http://blog.insiderchatter.com/2007/11/13/stepan-pachikov-evernote-web-20-perfect-mobile-storm-to-hit-in-2008-interview/

Since the inital $6 million EverNote venture funding 18 months ago, EverNote has achieved many milestones:

Released two major versions of EverNote desktop for Windows,

Captured over 60,000 active users,

Developed beta versions of smart phone and Web platforms,

Signed major distribution partnerships with Hitachi, Lexar, Fujitsu, Wacom, Toshiba, SanDisk…

60,0000 active users captured since the $6 million funding was obtained. Don't know if all 60K are using the full (paid) version or if this includes all the free version users. Assuming all are Plus users and (bigger and less likely assumption) they all paid ~$50 for the program, well that's only $3 million revenue. I assume the distribution partnerships with the hardware manufacturers create additional income but I'd guess not enough to close the $3 million gap. Business is business and the numbers dictate your direction. I think the best we can hope for is EN 3 to be a HUGE success and EN finding sales of a hardcore version (our beloved 2.2) to be profitable enough to continue offering\supporting.

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Business is business and the numbers dictate your direction.

I think you misunderstand the nature of venture capital. It isn't debt and is basically a calculated gamble. Most venture capital investments don't pay off. Some do OK. The real gain is from the very few that win massively. The $6m is already spent from the venture capitalists point of view. They will hope it pays off. If they see the future looking good, they will be happy to put more money in. They will know it takes a lot of time for these investments to get to the stage of making profits.

What it does mean is that the goal is a very big one. They have spent a few years developing the product and getting themselves into the market. The goal from conception to investment was never to support power users, it was to provide something to help almost everyone. From that point of view it has to move on to the net. The only alternative would be to get into the business & education markets in a big way, and it is very hard (and expensive) to do that with a single product; especially when MS already has OneNote.

The real question is whether simplifying the options (as they seem to be in 3) is really the way to go. Most of us don't see why the much valued features of 2.2 can't be kept. Most very successful products have power users and a majority of users who never use 95% of the features, but feel more comfortable knowing that they are there if they are wanted.

If they are looking at viral marketing (and the 'invitation' strategy and beta format is a classic method), then it will certainly be a problem if there are a lot of vocal 2.2 users complaining all over the net about lost features. So, hopefully, they will address these issues. Gmail got where it is because the people (mostly power users) who were invited in early thought it was much better than the alternatives.

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The real question is whether simplifying the options (as they seem to be in 3) is really the way to go. Most of us don't see why the much valued features of 2.2 can't be kept. Most very successful products have power users and a majority of users who never use 95% of the features, but feel more comfortable knowing that they are there if they are wanted.

Frankly, this had been what gripes me about 3.0 from the beginning. Even given the fact mentioned in another thread that testing and debugging the more complex EN2.2 with 3.0 features added would be far more expensive than testing without these features, is it worth losing a good portion of your installed base? Particularly your gurus? I believe, and I'll bet there are statistics somewhere to validate this, that 90% of users use 10% of the features of any software package. I've taught XL, Project, and worked with "normal" end users of Word, even Windows itself. Most users of XL don't know how to autofill, much less do multi-field sorts or complex Boolean filters. Most Word users don't know how to create a template or a TOC. And how many Windoze (pre XP) have icons scattered all over their desktop because they didn't know about "Window, Arrange Icons"? So why does EN have to be dumbed down to the level of the average user? :? Let those of us who wish to use it to the max have what we need, and let those who just want to dump stuff in it in the hopes they'll somehow be able to find it later, use it that way.

I don't think that Phil and Andy understand how we use their product, or even who we are. When I talked with them a few months ago, we discussed the new path they're taking with 3.0. I suggested that they would lose some of the gurus (even I didn't realize the hue and cry that was coming) but that "if you want to make an omelette...". They objected and said they hoped to convince all of us that this was a better product. I knew then that their heads were in the clouds. (Ok, pun intended. Sorry! ;) ) They neither understand how we use the product or who we are. They believe that they can reduce EN from a tool to a toy and that we'll all just smile blandly and follow. I don't see many "followers" using EN at this level. We're all people who forge ahead of others, try new things, explore possibilities, while others are content to use this tool, in the easiest possible way. Nothing wrong with that, just a different way of living. But I believe it shows a disconnect between EN management and many of their users. And those users may be the most important ones! I don't know anything about what drives software sales, but I doubt that losing most of your high-end users is a good thing. I guess the EN experiment we're watching will give us all an insight into whether a software company can abandon it's most sophisticated users and still succeed. I'm certainly very curious. Has EN management shot themselves in the foot here, or will the new EN win out? Stay tuned! 8)

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Here's the thing... If we get frustrated enough with Evernot3, we'll leave. But we'll be replaced with users with lower usage requirements (who pay for the service). Seems like a "win" for EverNote -- get rid of the power users with their demands and replace them with users happy to pay for less. Not sure there is a value proposition for EverNote to listen to us.

That paragraph really scares me. I am new to Evernote for Mac, having tried the Windows version a while back. I really liked what it had to offer, but was looking for more of an all-in-one program at the time.

I always end up pushing the limits of a program like Evernote, which is half the fun of using it. I used Zoot for years, then Infoselect and Do Organizer. With the exception of Zoot, the others weren't the most powerful in their class, but they encompassed more functionality like email and contacts, which was what I was looking for.

But with the Mac, I now feel comfortable with separate programs that are best in class for each area. So I have been testing out Everote and thought the Mac beta was pretty good for a first go around. I just assumed that the advanced functionality of EN 2.2 would be there in the future, but this thread really worries me. And I always worry when a company alienates it's power users. With an active forum, they really provide a valuable service that you usually can't value with numbers.

Let's hope that the fears expressed in this thread don't pan out. The interviews I've heard with Phil make me believe he knows what he is doing. I just hope the VC don't dilute the program too much.

Vince

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Hmmmmm

Some thoughts....after these VERY, very, very interesting postings...

I am Beta testing version 3 on my Windows XP SP2 dual cuore (bought on purpose just before Vista was installed "de facto" on HP, :) :) ) with the Windows downloaded software

I am Beta testing the online version (installed the Mozilla as the Internet 6 is not supported and I still need it)

I am Beta testing version 3 on my Iphone

I am (was, still am....dunno) an analyst and a programmer.

From the point of view of power user... it is true that most users do not know a thing about the power behind Word or Excel.... seen it lots of time. Even at a banking level or enterprise level, they would not be able to make a good simulation "well done", powerful, on-the-fly reflecting. Perhaps that is why Word or Excel haven't suffer lots of modifications since the good old 95 versions.... (funny enough). Access neither

Perhaps because too few Power Users!!! (lol or grin as you wish)

From the same point of view, but on the side of development, 6 MILLIONS for EN is simply too much for a notetaking-categorizing-searching system. It is not that hard to develop, guys, believe me. There are single programmers who have released sensational software just working by night!!!!

What enlightens me is some findings throughout the Forum (and thanks to the posters I am not naming in this post but are just a few posts above

First point

Libin hails a three-prong EverNote competitive value proposiiton:

1) Focus on instant, effortless capturing,

2) Unmatched recognition and search quality,

3) Access-from-anywhere service model.

1 is ok and done by many softwares

2 is appealing (see more below)

3 is done by many ways

So I guess, number 2 is having my full attention

Second point

Look at the YouTube videos on "Evernote".... It seems that EVERYTHING has to do with the AIR technology.... ink recognition, photo etc...

Third point

Have a look at the post suggested earlier in this forum at http://blog.insiderchatter.com/2007/11/ ... interview/

There is a graphic in that page that shows something really interesting, namely the fact that:

1. User captures "any memory" on PC, phone, camera or other device via TEXT, PHOTOGRAPH, VOICE, DIGITAL INK.... (I enfasize photograph and ink, voice is not bad either)... using EN CLIENT or built-in capability of the device

2. Information is automatically TRANSFERRED to the EN SERVERS, where it is run through a series of advanced recognition and categorization technologies

3. synchro, available on-line etc,.,,,, see the graph.

WOW.... this gives me the picture nearly complete.... (and the spending of 6 millions, the contracts, etc....). ADVANCED RECOGNITION is obviously a major point, and the fact that the recognition and categorization (internal) is made on the servers of EN is worth lots of money.... (huge processes and I guess huge storage will follow also)

Air works very, very badly on our 2.2.1 It is kindof a joke when I make a serious searche and gets the results of images!!!

But if that process is made OUT of my computer, on a server with its own huge program, will it not get better and better???? And won't we be stunned with the incredible new capability of EN to really find what is wanted now in our images???

This would be worth testing, and perhaps EN will get better in the tags or saved search, or perhaps coming back at us and listen to our claims for the lost 2.2.1 capabilities.

I am getting very, very curious. And I am willing now to wait the two months and the new versions of the BETA 3.

We will then fight to get back what we wish (if possible) and try to get EN "right"

But I think we can make an effort for the not-power-user. The idea is perhaps less dum than just recognizing labels of bottles!!!! There is more to it, I am sure!!!

Beeing honest, I still don't want to put my research or sensible data on the web, and LESS if it is processed by a program somewhere (meaning they have full access to what I write (and think, and discover and relate and etc.....), or to my relevant banking data, keywords etc.... (obviously apparent and not encrypted if it has to be "processed")... But it might be worthy for, say, regular stuf.... ALTHOUGH I am NOT saying that EN could steal or use my info, I suppose that if they are facing so many contracts, it would be plainly stupid. And I grant EN with my confidence. What I would like to know is how they will implement the security in the pre and post processing of my info to garantee my privacy.

I am kind of in a funny mood now.... might get interesting....will it be worth it?.....would I use it after all???......perhaps, maybe, dunno......

Guys: a proposal:

Lets keep up with the Beta testing (forgetting a little the 2.2.1).... there is perhaps something we could get out of this mess we are in actually.

I am a little concerned not seeing any comment of the EN Team, but not too worried... maybe they are just waiting....

IFFFFFF and only IF Beta 3 gets better than 2.2.1 plus a garantee of good recognition, plus voice, plus access from anywhere, plus GARANTEED SECURITY.... etc.... we could have a great software here....

Lets fight (as I said) because we are power users and WE KNOW WHAT WE NEED because it is MISSING IN EVERY OTHER SOFTWARE ON THE MARKET....

But lets cooperate also, because we still could be surprised...

:shock: Oh Lord, Am I optimistic today 8) ;)

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Business is business and the numbers dictate your direction.

I think you misunderstand the nature of venture capital. It isn't debt and is basically a calculated gamble. Most venture capital investments don't pay off. Some do OK. The real gain is from the very few that win massively. The $6m is already spent from the venture capitalists point of view. They will hope it pays off. If they see the future looking good, they will be happy to put more money in. They will know it takes a lot of time for these investments to get to the stage of making profits.

I don't think I misunderstand at all. VC's will invest in only about 4 out of 100 businesses they consider. They are expecting (hoping) about one out of every 10 of their investments will be successes. That one success needs to be a big enough hit to cover the losses from the other 9 (or so) failures. I never referred to the VC funding as debt. I do know that investment does very often come with strings attached, meaning the investors will in many cases insist on having a say in how the company is run. Whether the investors are of the venture capital type or the more mainstream stockholders, they'll be looking for bigger returns than it appears (again, to me, at least) would be generated had EN stayed the course of the original product line. I didn't refernce a time frame for the return nor did I imply the investors would be impatient. I simply asserted EN's direction is steered by the numbers and that's why 3.0 is not what we want but what they believe the bigger market they need will want.

As far as "a lot of vocal 2.2 users complaining all over the net about lost features" goes, I'd be (pleasantly) surprised. Looking at the responses to the Mobile Client Poll (or any poll I can recall on these forums) it doesn't seem we're that rowdy a bunch.

Just my two cents worth but I might be overpaid. :wink:

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Guys: a proposal:

Lets keep up with the Beta testing (forgetting a little the 2.2.1).... there is perhaps something we could get out of this mess we are in actually.

I am a little concerned not seeing any comment of the EN Team, but not too worried... maybe they are just waiting....

IFFFFFF and only IF Beta 3 gets better than 2.2.1 plus a garantee of good recognition, plus voice, plus access from anywhere, plus GARANTEED SECURITY.... etc.... we could have a great software here....

Lets fight (as I said) because we are power users and WE KNOW WHAT WE NEED because it is MISSING IN EVERY OTHER SOFTWARE ON THE MARKET....

But lets cooperate also, because we still could be surprised...

:shock: Oh Lord, Am I optimistic today 8) :(

Optimism is more productive than pessimism. I was one of the earliest beta testers of this product, and I certainly understand much of what has been said here. If I had to pick the one thing that separates Evernote from the competition, I would choose automatic tagging. I make extensive use of that feature, and I am finding the lack of it in version 3 a bit annoying, but I am writing this using Firefox 3.0 beta 5. Why is that relevant? The thing that drew me to Firefox was mouse gestures, and they are not currently available in the beta I am using. I do love a lot of the capabilities of the beta, and I trust that eventually someone will make gestures available again. In the meantime, I am running the beta in parallel with the current released version, and I use whichever I want until the new version catches up with the old.

Evernote is the same way for me. I am running 2.2 in parallel with version 3, and I am finding things I really like in the beta, in spite of some missing features. I use both a laptop and a desktop, and I really was getting frustrated with the sync paradigm in 2.2 I just never got it to work seamlessly. This left me feeling like I was having early onset Alzheimer's disease (I KNOW I captured that image, why can't I find it !!!) Version 3 has completely eliminated that problem. I have yet to have the image reading work as easily as it does in the demo, but I trust the folks at Evernote, and I believe that they will try to accommodate us if we are patient. If they are sounding a little defensive, then try reading this thread as if it was directed at you and see how defensive you get. This has always been a forum I enjoyed reading, and I would like us all to try to cut each other a little slack.

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At the risk of sounding paranoid, may I ask why this forum, just within the past few days, has suddenly become no longer fully public (i.e. you now have to register even to read messages)? Is this change in any way related to the negative tone of many of the recent messages (mine included, alas)?

I hope not.

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I've been using 2.2 for a while. I'm no power user, but I was using Onenote 2007 and couldn't deal with the binder interface. Actually, I mostly like EN for web capture. I find the note takeing function pretty primitive. I also really would like to see a hierarchical tree pane. Anyhow, I have also played a bit with InfoSelect. It's actually a more powerful program, but has a bit of a retro feel to it, and a bit of a learning curve. It's been around since DOS. There's also Ultra Recall, which I'm just checking out. It looks amazing and appears to be getting fairly regular updates. I think UR may be the ticket. Check it out.

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I have also played a bit with InfoSelect.

...

There's also Ultra Recall, which I'm just checking out.

Having UR, I cannot see it as a replacement for EN. Just not as convenient to get info in. Better notetaking and text editing abilities, and better outliner too, but not as useful as an info store.

Have never tried InfoSelect. Always seemed expensive, and I wonder about the update strategy for a product that supports Palms but not PPC.

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I've just been listening to the interview with Phil Libin, CEO of EverNote, on the IT Conversations podcast network. I don't suppose it will necessarily convert everyone to the model they are working on with 3.0 but it does at least explain where they are coming from and where they're trying to get to. I though it was very interesting: http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/sho ... 3600.html/

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I am a doctor and I being using 2.2 for some time now. It helped me collect medical and personal info, organize it and find it when I needed. I strongly recommeneded it to my colleagues. I tried 3.0 but I have to agree with most of you that I missed the features in older version.

I also feel a bitter taste using a soft which would not be updated. 3.0 is not exactly what I am lokking for.

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I've just been listening to the interview with Phil Libin, CEO of EverNote, on the IT Conversations podcast network. I don't suppose it will necessarily convert everyone to the model they are working on with 3.0 but it does at least explain where they are coming from and where they're trying to get to. I though it was very interesting: http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/sho ... 3600.html/

I did find this conversation very interesting. A lot of information you never hear talked about, especially long-term storage and retrieval of data. Phil does come across as being pretty sharp, and I hope he can fulfill on the ideas he has.

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I think we have it all wrong and no matter how loud we shout, EN 3 is going to be a decent 'hit' with new users. With podcasters like Leo Laporte and company pitching the beta and the fact that it runs on a Mac and is all webby, that audience is going to rush to EN 3. They, not having ever used a version prior to 3, will think it is the next best thing and EN will just brush it's older user base aside. In listening to these podcasts where they have talked up 3.0's features, they were going nuts over it. Not once did they mention any of the things that we currently find useful.

We do not matter to them, they have a new target audience in sight.

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Ok ok....

I lookd the movies on the EN3 site, I listened to the interview (url is http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/sho ... 3600.html/ very interesting as Phil Libin confess to be a no-tag user, from 2 to 15 max (around minute 20 or so), which is simply THE clue to the whole problem we have).

All is about photos, labels, id stuf, text in images or written notes..... and everything into EN3 than possible to use from everywhere, with any device.... lets face the truth: they are announcing a toy.... very cute, very nice and absolutely useless after your first 200 notes!!! (if no use of tags of course!)

If the CEO of a company doesn't need tags, its probably because he doesn't use lots of notes!!!! He is playing with notebooks, not USING them for work...

Imagine a computer with 2 to 15 folders (and nothing else)....WOW!!!! What a mess. Even with the most sophisticated searching tool, you won't bring the document you need because the word is simply not in.... or you will bring hundreds because the word is in all of them... and you will have to refine and refine and loose time and again until you realize you simply cannot find it or you are the lucky guy and find it (three hours of efforts for the devil!!!!)

Phil Libin has a good idea. But he is a specialist in ID recognition and stuff like that...all ANR and AIR !!!! He has, following the interviews and the declarations he made, NO IDEA of a good notetaking system or MEMORY-like systems. And he does not even use notes I bet except to show the toy!!!! (2 to 15 tags will give perhaps 400 notes of use???)

He uses a tag called "trip"...... gosh what a good tag.... no country? no motive? no job? no relationship to other tags?

No wonder the doctor cannot use EN3... he will not take pictures of his patients ID.... he is interested in diagnosing, symptoms, ilnesses, relating some findings, so many data that does not fit into EN3 but does in 2.2.1 (lots of stuf will come from the web in his research but the WORDS to search that stuf are simply not enough to recall what he needs when he needs it!!!!)

Our memory is not only to recall ID's and scribbled stuff. It is our WORKING engine so to speak. And memory needs to categorize (in a first step), then relate, then interrelate, associate and so on (there is a ton of literature about that). And tagging is very, very close to what memory needs as it is far less constraining and 2.2.1 was doing a hell of a job in that way.

EN3 will be a flop because they are sticked to the "fun" of using it, the "from everywhere", but not on the real utility wich is to do real work with it, to use it for writing, gathering, tagging, recovering (quickly and with no fooling around).

Now, if Phil Libin contracts a real notetaker ( a writer, student, researcher, whatever guy who needs to gather info and work with it intelligently), he will learn that, unless the tagging is very, very clever (as in 2.2.1), people will simply not buy his toy after 30 days of use.... (there are tons of software that will come to the same web...perhaps not reading bottle labels but who cares!!!)

PHIL, PLEASE CONTACT the power users, they will tell you what a normal user would need....as a minimum.

Now, if EN3 gets (inherits) the power of 2.2.1, I would pay quite a few bucks to have it because yes, there are things that are interesting in EN3 that I could use.

PLEASE BE SERIOUS ABOUT NOTETAKING AND ABOUT WHAT YOU CALL "OUR MEMORIES" ... we want to WORK with them. (work is THE word here!!!!)

Tom (ANR and AIR are effectively better on EN3 but no garantee!!!!)

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I fear that Tom is right. Almost every question I had about the transition of 2.2.1 to 3.0 is pretty easily explained by listening to the podcast with Phil Libin. He had an idea for a product, found a piece of software that could be retooled to maybe accomplish that end and invested heavily in it. Not a bad way to go about things. Probably quite efficient, but it leaves the original users of the retooled software somewhat in a lurch.

Evernote is changing from a note-taking product to something else. Whether or not that something else will still be useful for taking notes remains to be seen.

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Maybe they should change the name from Evernote to "Evernote Home" and continue developement of evernote 2.2.1 calling it "Evernote Corporate"

:lol:

... or ....Evernote WEB .... vs. Evernote Professional ...

A different software, targetted to a different audience with common technology inside.

I ( and the company i work for) use it to work, take notes of projects, phone messages etc... Sync with other workstations with security sensitive informations.....a work related environment.

But students for exemple would rather use v3 for "see your notes everywhere" option.... They won't use it to dispatch work among workstations or keep tab of customers job details. Home use would benefit from the web also ( family notes accessible from the office )

Miguel.

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Bad things:

1) I have not found a way to insert pictures into my EN3 notes. Like I cannot drag a png file there.

2) There seems to be no way to import my 2.2 notes

3) Where is the very cool timeline bar?

4) In 2.2 I never used the clip tool. I always marked and pasted. That worked fine for me. My browser FF3 is not supported yet.

But there are good things.

1) The Web synch is nice, and the IMAP is nicer because I can access my notes from anywhere. But I am not a PDA type, so I put the account into Thunderbird, and that locked it up

Jim Rome

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Little correction to my post

where I say

If the CEO of a company doesn't need tags, its probably because he doesn't use lots of notes!!!! He is playing with notebooks, not USING them for work...

it should say notebook in the meaning of note databases...

And to answer the previous post from Migou, two versions (Expert and lite) it would not be a solution. It is too hard to know in advance who needs what... En3 can (will perhaps) be a very good software if it understands well enough the need for the formidable tag solution version 2.2.1 was giving to serious notetakers...

And this must be open to everybody.

Believe me, all Lite users cry for the advanced system, and many of the advanced cry about having spent too much money!!! It depends on your skills with the program and with the possibilitites you discover day to day with your use of it.

Everybody passes through the whole process beginner through perhaps "power user", most will stay comfortable with somewhere in between. And the use of the intelligent tagging system is for everybody...

We need somebody to show/persuade/force/induce/explain to Phil what are 2.2.1 tags and why they are so intelligent/nice/usefull/clever/not-seen-in-other-systems and that they are an asset.... (very good for the company). Perhaps THE asset, as the notebook-on-the-web idea is coming (look at that guy who annonced his own on this forum!!!!). So EN must keep a foot ahead! (Tagging is that foot, plus the leg and perhaps some more).

We are not kidding nor playing. We work (in my case since 1999 with infohandler and before that with my own programmed system) with our notes. I pen-scan some, i dictate lots, i write mosts and I gather web clippings (everyday more). But they all fit in in a certain way, regarding certain info that already is there, crossing the boundary of other category...they belong to several categories (or tags) at the same time, plus one or two that can make a substancial difference, they can (most have) have an automatic keyword associated to them (care to be taken with keywords categories, the keyword might sometimes be absent of the clipping we made!!!, just a reminder).

I don't do business, don't need to share my notes but would probably love to have them from everywhere. It won't be my whole notebase, probably my actual working notebase... but the idea is great.

I probably will never use the web software, just the local....and keep sending emails to myself then copy the body in a new note like i do till i have a mail!!!! But, hey, that is me!!!

What is US, the whole comunity? Tag lovers!!!! (My english is worse everydday :lol: )

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"No wonder the doctor cannot use EN3... he will not take pictures of his patients ID.... he is interested in diagnosing, symptoms, ilnesses, relating some findings, so many data that does not fit into EN3 but does in 2.2.1 (lots of stuf will come from the web in his research but the WORDS to search that stuf are simply not enough to recall what he needs when he needs it!!!!)"

right on target; my tag system is very complicated and I use the category intersection a lot. I really thing about EN 2.2 as a tool for work more than anything else. I believed in this thing and put a lot of my time in it.

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We do not matter to them, they have a new target audience in sight.

Well then, for their sake, let's hope they don't wind up like so many power user products that downgraded and went after a mass market -- a failure. Most techno trendies and folks who buy software based on hype will buy a product once (actually, most will just download a free trial and play around with it), and that's it. Lots of software has died trying to expand its market share, so my best wishes to them to avoid that.

The logic in not having advanced features seems then to be to just generate enough hype to sell the whole company to Google or Microsoft or some portable device or storage manufacturer who wants a bundled app (bundled with an OS, hardware device, and/or web service) for synchronizing small, ad-hoc databases of random multi-media "notes" stuff across multiple devices and/or the Web. If that is their plan, it could indeed make the EN guys rich. Good for them.

Some of the things people want, such as inter-note relations, category intersection, the restoration of "uncategorized" default, the restoration of of all auto-categories / types / attributes (such as types based on source / content like image, Excel, etc.), and attaching / linking to files, are actually really easy to implement. It would make sense to make people happy and just do them. Other things, like PDF support, are crucial even for the lower end users. I believe some of that stuff is coming. If it is, I'll probably keep using EN until something better comes along, even without some of the more advanced features like custom templates, if those things come to fruition (so long as neither export to XML so I can transfer data into another program when the time came, nor the option to have local-only DBs went away after release).

Custom templates and rule based tagging may be more difficult to reimplement, but the question then becomes -- do they want power users creating enhancements for the product for free, or not? Custom templates, rules, and scripting are ways to get a power user base to enhance the product for free (provided the company creates a forum for uploading and sharing such things). It works for some software (even some software that has lots of low-end users), and not for others. I think it might work fine for EN if they're willing to do it, but maybe their cost-benefit analysis says no. Personally, I hope not.

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Ok ok....

I lookd the movies on the EN3 site, I listened to the interview (url is http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/sho ... 3600.html/ very interesting as Phil Libin confess to be a no-tag user, from 2 to 15 max (around minute 20 or so), which is simply THE clue to the whole problem we have).

All is about photos, labels, id stuf, text in images or written notes..... and everything into EN3 than possible to use from everywhere, with any device.... lets face the truth: they are announcing a toy.... very cute, very nice and absolutely useless after your first 200 notes!!! (if no use of tags of course!)

If the CEO of a company doesn't need tags, its probably because he doesn't use lots of notes!!!! He is playing with notebooks, not USING them for work...

I just listened to this podcast. Wow. And I don't mean that in a good way. 15 tags? I'd love to hear how many notes Phil has. As I listened to the podcast, I kept hearing him talk about another piece of software. Surely it couldn't be my beloved evernote being described in this fashion. Good to keep track of receipts from a business trip? Good to keep operational memories for up to 10,000 years? Make clipping so easy that you can just do it from whatever computer you're on, whatever phone you're on? Ability, some time in the future, to find all photos of Bob where he's mad?

Sure, all of these (well, except for the 10,000 years thing) sound laudable. But really, they describe what to me is a toy. Like del.icio.us, or twitter, or flickr. Something that does one thing, and does it well. In this case, Evernote's "thing" would be the ability to capture miscellaneous ***** so that you can find that taxi receipt or wine bottle later. But it's a very specific thing, and it's not a primary work tool.

I would love to know, how many, if any of the people (including those phd researchers) are using EN as a primary work tool? I can see using the *new* evernote paradigm to keep track of certain things that don't need organizing - my list of books to read, recipes, tips for computer tricks, etc. But I'll tell you, I'm doing my PhD right now, and EN is actually my primary research tool. I use it all the time to organize my thoughts, notes, screenshots, snippets of code, etc. etc. Hell, I'm thinking of dedicating my thesis to EN. There's no way that 3b would be able to fill that need for me. 15 tags?!? Yeesh.

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Very interesting thread, guys. I was re-introduced to Evernote today after seeing it up on the http://www.buzzfeed.com/buzz/Evernote site. I had used an older version of EN a while back and never gave it the time required to make it part of my routine. Today I was suddenly energized to properly invest time (and perhaps money) in EN but, based on this thread, I am going to give it a pass.

It's not that I don't think EN3 wouldn't suit my needs just fine - I'm not much of a tag user, for one. It's that the EN team has apparently abandoned its dedicated user base (not a single posting in this thread to ease concerns?!!). If EN3 is going to be a radical departure from EN2, then why not support BOTH versions with updates/fixes rather than expecting paying users to shoehorn their habits into an ill-fitting upgrade?

In other words, I have little interest in EN3 (even if it'll be good for me) because based on what the EN team is doing to the EN2 users, it's just as likely they'll strand me with an incomplete EN3 when they decide to again shift gears for EN4.

A word to Phil and Company: Wait until you're more than a bit player in the information industry before turning your backs on those who've been nudging you up the ladder.

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I'm a little confused by all this -- is it really the intention of EN to drop the features of 2.2 and instead move to 3.0 the way it is? 3.0 is a BETA -- from what has been said, the plan is to evolve it to something that satisfies all the 2.2 power users by bringing over much of the functionality, while continuing to improve many other features. From what I understand that is still the plan. I haven't seen anyone from EN say that yep, 3.0 is done, that's the way it's going to be, and if you want the functionality of 2.2, then you should use that or something else.

I've been trying out both for the first time (I think I may have played with Evernote way back, but it's changed a lot since the last time I looked at it), and I'm impressed with the potential of both. From what I can see of version 3.0, there is really no reason that the features of 2.2 cannot be added into the final product. If I had to choose right now, I would definitely choose 2.2, but the "access anywhere" and sync of information is very compelling for v.3. I've used other products for keeping this type of information, and while 3.0 doesn't have all the features I would need to have, I think it could definitely get there.

I think a number of people on here are complaining without really seeing 3.0, judging from the comments of "I don't want all my info in the cloud", "online only", etc, because the software still allows local / private notebooks and offline capabilities of the software. I'd be very excited to be able to access from anywhere, because sometimes I want to give myself a note, but I'm not at my own computer or whatever. Having a web component is definitely interesting. The e-mail recipient capability is very interesting as well.

I think everyone needs to do a wait and see sort of thing. Hopefully the final intention is to create the functionality seen in 2.2 with the other features in 3.0. It seems like if nothing else they could create a 3.0 that has all the features of the current beta, but then for your offline workbooks it could give you every bit of the functionality that 2.2 does now (if for some reason those features won't translate into web/mobile/mac, etc or whatever). I guess all I'm trying to say is now does not seem to be the time to panic. If I'm completely off basis here and the plan is to completely dumb down the product to the point that it's not useful, I would love to hear from the developers. ;-)

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I would love to know, how many, if any of the people (including those phd researchers) are using EN as a primary work tool?

Crane, in response to your question, I think I fit that profile. I'm a retired academic but still a very busy scholar -- two books in progress, editing a journal, etc. For the past couple of years I've put EN at the very center of my activities: I've built up a beautiful set of categories, have shifted nearly all my research notes into several EN databases, and -- thanks to those wonderful links -- have connected all this material together. Incidentally, I have also also been recommending EN enthusiastically to friends, former students and colleagues, and anyone else who would listen to me.

I am, to put it mildly, in a state of bewilderment by the sudden, dramatic dumbing-down of EN 3 (which would be completely unsuitable for my work). Of course I understand that a software company must have a large base of users to achieve a reasonable profit, but to throw overboard a powerful, sophisticated, elegant piece of software (as well as the most loyal, experienced users of EN 2.2) for the sake of this sort of shallow Web 2.0 glitz is beyond comprehension.

One of my books should be done in about another year, and for that I will continue to use my EN files. But the other book is a more long-term project, and that set of notes I am now laboriously shifting into another format (plain text, if you must know, to be manipulated by UltraEdit). I feel as though I've been seduced and abandoned by EN; it's not going to happen to me again if I can help it.

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I would love to know, how many, if any of the people (including those phd researchers) are using EN as a primary work tool?

Crane, in response to your question, I think I fit that profile.

Glad to hear from another academic putting EN through its paces :) I realize in retrospect that I forgot a few words in my question above. Heh. It should be "how many, if any, of the people *developing EN* (including those phd researchers) are using EN as a primary work tool." Kind of changes the semantics. I *know* that we have several power users *out here*. I was wondering if there were any power users *in there*. :(

Too bad that you have to move your database. Although plain text will never die. I skimmed the UltraEdit web page; guess I'll have to look at it again. For me, it's the whole automatic tag thing that wins me over. That's probably my most favourite strength of 2.2. (You know, I recently toyed with the idea of using Lotus Agenda for my daily GTD system; ugly, but it offered the same kind of "reading" of information from the input.)

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Oh the old Lotus Agenda? That looked like one? I have a copy laying around here somewhere still :(

I would have preferred the auto tagging categories to stay but alas... Also, to be fair, I do mostly and mainly search in EN. Why? It's fast, simple, to the point -- and usually I'm looking for one specific note, one specific piece of information.

I do see how EN is a slicer and dicer of information but to be fair, I don't think it was the true focus of the software; it wanted and wants to be a note taking software, not a database -- let alone an AI database :)

The seamless client-web integration has something very very tempting and, well, I'm willing to let go and be tempted by it.

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I'm a little confused by all this -- is it really the intention of EN to drop the features of 2.2 and instead move to 3.0 the way it is? 3.0 is a BETA -- from what has been said, the plan is to evolve it to something that satisfies all the 2.2 power users by bringing over much of the functionality, while continuing to improve many other features. From what I understand that is still the plan. I haven't seen anyone from EN say that yep, 3.0 is done, that's the way it's going to be, and if you want the functionality of 2.2, then you should use that or something else.
I sure hope you're right. That was my initial thinking, but now this thread really has me worried!
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I'm a little confused by all this -- is it really the intention of EN to drop the features of 2.2 and instead move to 3.0 the way it is? 3.0 is a BETA -- from what has been said, the plan is to evolve it to something that satisfies all the 2.2 power users by bringing over much of the functionality, while continuing to improve many other features. From what I understand that is still the plan. I haven't seen anyone from EN say that yep, 3.0 is done, that's the way it's going to be, and if you want the functionality of 2.2, then you should use that or something else.

Can you give us any referneces to the above planned evolution?

I think everyone needs to do a wait and see sort of thing. Hopefully the final intention is to create the functionality seen in 2.2 with the other features in 3.0. It seems like if nothing else they could create a 3.0 that has all the features of the current beta, but then for your offline workbooks it could give you every bit of the functionality that 2.2 does now (if for some reason those features won't translate into web/mobile/mac, etc or whatever). I guess all I'm trying to say is now does not seem to be the time to panic. If I'm completely off basis here and the plan is to completely dumb down the product to the point that it's not useful, I would love to hear from the developers. ;-)

Your last statement is what we're waiting for, too. I think if you read this entire thread all the way through again you'll see there are clear indications EN 3 will not have several of the 2.2 features that have made EN so dear to us. If these features are forthcoming it would only take a short response from one of the developers (or Phil himself) to end this concern. There's an old saying that goes (more or less) "silence means agreement".

Regards,

Bob

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I'm a little confused by all this -- is it really the intention of EN to drop the features of 2.2 and instead move to 3.0 the way it is? 3.0 is a BETA -- from what has been said, the plan is to evolve it to something that satisfies all the 2.2 power users by bringing over much of the functionality, while continuing to improve many other features. From what I understand that is still the plan. I haven't seen anyone from EN say that yep, 3.0 is done, that's the way it's going to be, and if you want the functionality of 2.2, then you should use that or something else.

No, they haven't said that. And it's what they haven't said that is the issue. While they haven't said that "3.0 is done, and that's how it's gonna be", but they haven't answered all of the concerns expressed by their power users about where it is going. We've been espressing our concerns for months about full-blown categories, the intersection panel (or something like it), note links, etc., and there's has been absolutely NO assurance that these features are in the plan, either short term or long. As somone said in a previous post, the silence is deafening.

I've been trying out both for the first time (I think I may have played with Evernote way back, but it's changed a lot since the last time I looked at it), and I'm impressed with the potential of both. From what I can see of version 3.0, there is really no reason that the features of 2.2 cannot be added into the final product. If I had to choose right now, I would definitely choose 2.2, but the "access anywhere" and sync of information is very compelling for v.3. I've used other products for keeping this type of information, and while 3.0 doesn't have all the features I would need to have, I think it could definitely get there.

I think a number of people on here are complaining without really seeing 3.0, judging from the comments of "I don't want all my info in the cloud", "online only", etc, because the software still allows local / private notebooks and offline capabilities of the software. I'd be very excited to be able to access from anywhere, because sometimes I want to give myself a note, but I'm not at my own computer or whatever. Having a web component is definitely interesting. The e-mail recipient capability is very interesting as well.

No one has said it couldn't get there. And no one at EN has said there is any intention to get it there again.

I'm glad you like the new features. To someone who never used it in it's old form, it probably seems great. EN 3.0 certainly has some good things about it, and may well suceed. But if you haven't experienced what it used to do, and become dependent on it to do your job every day, as I, and others here, have done, you have no right to criticize our discomfiture with 3.0 and with EN management.

I think everyone needs to do a wait and see sort of thing. Hopefully the final intention is to create the functionality seen in 2.2 with the other features in 3.0. It seems like if nothing else they could create a 3.0 that has all the features of the current beta, but then for your offline workbooks it could give you every bit of the functionality that 2.2 does now (if for some reason those features won't translate into web/mobile/mac, etc or whatever). I guess all I'm trying to say is now does not seem to be the time to panic. If I'm completely off basis here and the plan is to completely dumb down the product to the point that it's not useful, I would love to hear from the developers. ;-)

We have been waiting and seeing. You're new here. You're asking what we've been asking for some time, both here in the forum and in private. We'd like Phil, or someone at EN, to tell us that they're intention is to bring back most, if not all, of the old functionality. The lack of a concrete answer says volumes. You just haven't been around long enough to hear it! It's all to easy to come along now and tell us all to calm down when you don't have a clue about what we're upset about. But if I choose to be upset about losing something valueable to me, don't tell me how to react. You're like those people coming to Florida today and saying, "Oh, it's so nice here! I don't understand what the fuss is all about." To the people who knew it 30 years ago, it's a pit now. And they're upset for good reasons. We have our reasons too, so please, don't tell me how I ought to respond. Walk a mile in my mocassins before you tell me how I should feel.

Have a nice day!

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I must agree with Salgud...

Everyone worrying about the Beta 3 are users with a very deep knowledge of EN since 1.5 to 2.2.1

The Team did a jolly good work with these versions (and some are still a little faulty and we supposed we would have a 2.2.2 etc...

Nobody could even dream of having a Beta 3 wich is just enough to jot some stuff, categorized as folders (yuck), and access it from everywhere. But where and how are WE going to feel when we have databases with 450 to 5,000 notes, deep and nested tags, linked tags, and several features that were giving us the capability of WORKING (not jotting) with EN... Real work, deep research, etc. etc...

Phil said in his first post... the core of 2.2.1 will be in version 3.... two months!!!! And the tape with Phil's own words, the demos on the site are saying "nope!!! you 'll have zip except you can get to your jotting from everywhere.... that DOES make a huge difference!! And we feel abandonned...

I wish you could get involved with 2.2.1 in a real work situation during only 6 months... and then try to think of a way to use version 3.....answer: find another software and begin to cut and paste!!!!

UNLESS the promises on the day of the annoucment are kept and I will be the first in kissing the Team's feet..... but i have a strong feeling it will not be the case due to their "persistant silence"

Tom

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+1 Here too. I've been trying hard to be not-too-bitchy on the forum, since I was impressed that EN actually phoned me before releasing EN3b to take my temperature, so to speak. In retrospect, I believe they were asking a few power users to "be nice" on the forum when 3b came out.

I've been as nice as I can, given how bitter I am. I'm to the point now where I debate removing EN3b every time I look in my Add/Remove programs list. And honestly, the whole "thanks for your feeback" is making me feel as warm and fuzzy as the old "the cheque's in the mail"...

Sigh.

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It's that the EN team has apparently abandoned its dedicated user base (not a single posting in this thread to ease concerns?!!).

Hi all,

Hmm. How can this thread be 94 posts long without one official response?

(Not full answers necessarily, but at least some responses, and the start of a dialogue).

That strikes me as... weird.

I can understand not having all the concrete answers, or not wanting to make certain promises, etc. But not even one solitary post with any official word at all?

Surely they can first decide if they are going to incorporate EN2.2 functionality

(Phil's old post made it sound that way [from a certain point of view]).

Hopefully they'd collaborate with users to try to prioritize it. If they're hesitant to incorporate, maybe we can successfully persuade them to pursue a high priority subset of EN2.2 functionality that would be most helpful to us.

But since there is no response, then there is no dialogue. It's like talking to a wall, and people are starting to walk by and give us strange looks. ( I swear, someone was here a second ago! I was talking to him!)

I am a relatively new user, but I learned from the forums quickly, and started on the road of a "power user".

I am in no illusion of the Beta having "everything instantly". I would absolutely take a "wait and see" approach as an earlier poster said if someone official gave appropriate posts that justified the "wait" part.

I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of needing (at least a decent part of) EN2.2 functionality.

I truly believe it can be a win-win. They can get the larger market, while still making a solid product that is basic at first glance, but has sophisticated (optional) power behind it that "power users" can tap.

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Every week that goes by without the Evernote team responding to these concerns is quite astounding.

The issue here is that the very mission of Evernote - at least the old Evernote before it became to tool for recording wine labels on your cellphone - was a tool to organize your brain. While I hesitate to dip into the sometimes cult-like language of GTD, it is a "trusted system" which means once you nail down your system of working with ENote you need to trust that for all time your information will be there when you want it. This isnt some minor application you can just swap out and replace with something else. The anger here isnt just that the ENote team is eliminating many aspects of its old product which people relied on to organize their information - thus eroding anyone's ability to "trust" that ENote will be there for the long term - but that we are forced to guess where this software is going by anlyzing a few random podcast interviews.

Come on ENote management - this isnt exactly Apple or Microsoft here. Evernote has maybe a few thousand users who care about its existence and a good proportion of them are here on this board. You face a proliferation of online note taking products (Google Notebook anyone?) run by competitors far better funded and with massive distribution advantages. I'm not a Mac user and while I dont begrudge the ENote team's sudden love for that platform, there seems to be a new "organize everything" application out for OS X every day.

The one thing ENote has (had?) is a base of loyal users who trust the company will be there for them and do the right thing with a very critical product. Of course we "power users" arent your mass market opportunity but we are the voices who will blog/rant/evangelize for ENote and thus get this product critical mass buzz above the thousand other web x.0/cloud services launched each week. There is no other way for Evernote to break through the mass of competing products than grass-roots enthusiasm. And here is a cold splash of reality - your casual wine bottle photo clipper aint gonna be a grass-roots evangelist.

This isnt a democracy this is capitalism. We dont get to "vote" for what happens to Evernote and we know that. But spending just a little time explaining what you are doing and where you are going on these boards will cut down a lot of anger. Even if you dont tell us what we want to hear at least we will feel that we are being treated with respect. A throng of angry disrespected product apostates isnt exactly a good buzz environment to launch a new product in.

I have seen references made to Evernote opening its API. It is possible that everything people are upset about can be hacked back into ENote 3 via API plug-ins. If this is so, just let us know our concerns will be partially or fully mitigated once the API is opened. And if not, you will engender far less ill-will from this crowd by openly discussing the future of this product than by hiding in the background.

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Here, to brighten your day, is another quote:

Now this is a pitch I can relate to. I was talking to Phil Libin, the new CEO of Evernote, and he was selling me on the new Web-based version of the note-taking app his company makes. Libin was giving me the big picture: Evernote is "an extension of memory." It's an "external brain." But, he says, his company realizes that most people don't want to tag, categorize, annotate, or otherwise file their notes. They just want to jam information into a bin and be able to find it later. "I'm happy with the lazy slob market," he said.

It's at http://www.webware.com/8301-1_109-9892457-2.html.

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Now this is a pitch I can relate to. I was talking to Phil Libin, the new CEO of Evernote, and he was selling me on the new Web-based version of the note-taking app his company makes. Libin was giving me the big picture: Evernote is "an extension of memory." It's an "external brain." But, he says, his company realizes that most people don't want to tag, categorize, annotate, or otherwise file their notes. They just want to jam information into a bin and be able to find it later. "I'm happy with the lazy slob market," he said.

Wonderful...

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