Tag sort order varies in EN for Win for punctuation marks, spaces, numbers, letters

[IncrediMetaBeta 22]

I am often unable to sort tags consistently in the EN Windows client and thus have problems relying on them to organize and collate my notes.    I have tried closing EN for Windows and reopening it, but that does not change the sort order.  I have tried deleting tags and recreating them.

The nub of the problem seems to be this.  I see the following sort order but only as a special case:

-'!"#$%&()*./:;?@[\]^_`{|}~+<=>1aBcD

I see it only when the tags appear under a tag header.

By contrast, for the highest level of the tag hierarchy (including tag headers), the sort order can vary from this sequence in mystifying ways.  I have had no success in figuring out how the commingling of letters, spaces, and punctuation marks in different ways affects sort order.

Are there known bugs with sorting tags?  I am confused whether the differences I observe in tag sort order are due to bugs, or represent rule-based EN behavior that I just have not been able to figure out yet.

How would you assess and diagnose a situation like this?

1. How do spaces affect sort order?  It seems they do, but I can't fathom it.  
2. How does the commingling of letters, spaces and punctuation marks in different ways affect sort order?
3. Could tag styling change sort order?  (e.g. via bug)

I have about 500 tags (nested).  The unpredictability of the tag sort order interferes with inspecting and comparing tags while I curate my notes and extend my tagging structure.  My collation needs are constantly changing, so I'm frequently comparing different parts of my hierarchical tag "organizational structure."   I often reposition tags under header tags in that structure.  I often relabel tags, create new ones, assign them or remove them from notes, delete obsolete ones, etc.

I'm trying to understand EN Windows ability to sort tags not only alphabetically (ie., letters) but also by punctuation marks and numerals but it seems to do so erratically.  I have tags that are of different logical types.  Some are topical; some are keywords; some are logical, and I have (or am trying to create) numerous other kinds.  So I want to use the full keyboard.  (I realize that sort order varies by EN client but I'm just focusing on EN for Windows.  I rarely work in EN for the Web.)  

[gazumped 11,658]

Hi.  How and where are you sorting tags?  There's a tag column in list view,  tags are shown in the left panel,  and there are listings of tags in pop-up windows like Ctrl+Alt+T and Ctrl+Q (via previous searches).  It's also possible to nest tags in a hierarchy.

Some of your problem may be addressed by adding a prefix to tags rather than using special characters - which as you note,  are not interpreted in the same way in different OS's.  So a_this_tag will always be sorted above b_another_tag although without the prefixes,  the second would appear first.  The prefix could be another modifier - as in home_this_tag & work_another_tag

 

[jefito 5,589]

8 hours ago, IncrediMetaBeta said:

I am often unable to sort tags consistently in the EN Windows client and thus have problems relying on them to organize and collate my notes.    I have tried closing EN for Windows and reopening it, but that does not change the sort order.  I have tried deleting tags and recreating them.

Tag names should sort consistently wherever they are (top-level, nested, tag view, sorting the note list by tag, etc.). The best thing that you can do is post concrete examples of what you're seeing, and what you're expecting to see. They don't need to be large examples. As simply as you can show the problem, the easier it will be for support & developers to recreate it, and hopefully resolve it.

[IncrediMetaBeta 22]

3 hours ago, gazumped said:

Hi.  How and where are you sorting tags?  There's a tag column in list view,  tags are shown in the left panel,  and there are listings of tags in pop-up windows like Ctrl+Alt+T and Ctrl+Q (via previous searches).  It's also possible to nest tags in a hierarchy.

Some of your problem may be addressed by adding a prefix to tags rather than using special characters - which as you note,  are not interpreted in the same way in different OS's.  So a_this_tag will always be sorted above b_another_tag although without the prefixes,  the second would appear first.  The prefix could be another modifier - as in home_this_tag & work_another_tag

3

 

It’s the tags shown in the left panel to which I was referring.  I’m focusing solely on EN for Windows, no other client.  

I find the pop-up window Ctrl+Alt+T awkward to rely on.  First, it does not show a hierarchical view.  Second, it sorts differently than the way the left panel sorts.  I’ve been working with the left panel since I require a hierarchy to show relationships among tags.  Without it, I don't know how to organize tags and notes.  I know of no workaround for the absence of a tag hierarchy.  

I had considered the workaround you describe of using letter prefixes. It poses a series of other complications in planning a tagging system, seems to require a lot of maintenance, and begs the question, what is "normal" sorting behavior? 

By “special characters” do you mean punctuation?  When you call them ‘special,’ do you mean something pejorative?  That they do not sort consistently?  

Workarounds for EN are an ancient tradition shared among users.  They are part of the gift economy that saves the company money by not having to address issues.  Many of us subsist on workarounds as we wait for a better, more predictable design.  I have tried numerous workarounds.  Every time I've tried some new prefix workaround for labeling tags, I'm confounded by how punctuation sorts one way when it's subordinate in a hierarchy, and another way when it is superordinate.  Such behavior suggests a bug.  

Many others rely on punctuation.  Why can't I?  Is there some subset of the punctuation characters that sorts predictably regardless of it hierarchical level?  Before selecting any workaround, what I'd first like to understand is, what is normal tag sorting behavior that applies irrespective of what hierarchical level it is in the tag hierarchy?  

Vote early and often.
 

[IncrediMetaBeta 22]

 

3 hours ago, jefito said:

Tag names should sort consistently wherever they are (top-level, nested, tag view, sorting the note list by tag, etc.). The best thing that you can do is post concrete examples of what you're seeing, and what you're expecting to see. They don't need to be large examples. As simply as you can show the problem, the easier it will be for support & developers to recreate it, and hopefully resolve it.

 

will do so shortly.  there's an election going on.  

[CalS 5,280]

1 hour ago, IncrediMetaBeta said:

 

will do so shortly.  there's an election going on.  

So you are voting early and often. 

[gazumped 11,658]

7 hours ago, IncrediMetaBeta said:

By “special characters” do you mean punctuation?

Didn't mean to infer any lesser value to that sort of character,  just that it's not an alphanumeric;  so,  punctuation,  ASCII blocks like ■ (alt+254) and '¬' (from my keyboard).

I had a period where notebook names and tags might include non-alpha characters to indicate importance,  but sorting them was.. erratic.

Evernote don't have any sorting information that I'm aware of - you can plug into their (fairly basic) advice on organization generally here - Tips for organizing notes, notebooks, and tags