24 replies to this topic

[jimwillshire]

Dear All,

I am hoping someone might be able to help me out with my workflow, I have a lot (>3000) of academic papers stored as PDFs in EN and treated myself to a new retina-tastic iPad to review a few, however it turns out the preinstalled PDF viewer is a bit rubbish and doesn't allow me to highlight passages at all, let alone highlight passages and sync them back to EN.

So in an ideal world my workflow would be:
1. Open PDF from EN.
2. Highlight passages.
3. Close PDF and have the highlighted passages sync'd back in EN in the same note, preferably not in a newly created note

This poses the following questions:
- Can I change the default PDF reader?
- What PDF reader would everyone recommend for the iPad?
- Would I be able to save the changes made back into EN?!

All advice and suggested workflows appreciated!!

Jim

[GrumpyMonkey]

hi jim. sorry, but what you want is not possible at this time.

however, i am not sure i would want it even if it could be done!

in my workflow, i save journal articles into a folder in dropbox, and i open them with iannotate (highly recommended) in order to read and/or annotate them. when i am completely finished with the pdf, i upload it to evernote for storage.

in general, i prefer to take my notes separately in a note (titled as "120329 reading doe john 2011") and link to the original file (titled as "doe john 2011") in evernote. that way, i can review my notes without having to open up the pdf and scroll around for things. the cool thing with iannotate (and goodreader) is that you can export your annotations and email them to yourself in evernote. cool, right? then, you have the annotations in the pdf and in your notes.

[Angry Simian]

- Can I change the default PDF reader?
- What PDF reader would everyone recommend for the iPad?
- Would I be able to save the changes made back into EN?!

Jim,

Here is how I understand it:

1) No you cannot change the default PDF reader but you can perform the "open in" action which can be triggered by tapping on the icon in the upper right hand corner of the screen while you have the PDF open (it looks like an arrow leading outside of a box).

2) I really like iAnnotate PDF on the iPad for annotating PDFs. Lots of options and easy to use.

3) This is the one you're not going to like. No you will not be able to save the file back into EN on your iPad and here's why: The iPad employs a security feature called sandboxing which essentially "boxes" one app from another on an iOS device. What that means in English is that when you activate the "Open In" feature, it copies the PDF from Evernote to (in this case) iAnnotate PDF and then any changes to that PDF are now made to that version of the file. You can sync it via a number of methods (Dropbox, etc) but the version in your Evernote will remain unchanged until you replace it manually.

This is not exclusive to Evernote, the same holds true for essentially for all apps on iOS devices. That is one reason you'll notice if you use FastEver on the iPad, it actually syncs new notes directly to the Evernote Website (not Evernote locally on the iPad) and you actually have to sync Evernote to see the new note. Another example would be an application that let's you edit photos stored on your device, they let you edit the photo and save it as a new photo on the device but they do not give you the ability to modify the original or even delete the original because they exist in the Photo App sandbox.

Hopefully I explained it well enough.

[rolfessenden]

This is a way in which the ipad is disappointing. A better choice for what you want to do is something like the MacBook Air. It costs virtually the same as a fully deluxe ipad plus bluetooth keyboard. If you already own the ipad, then it costs twice as much...

I had the same problem, and I tried, tried, tried to make Goodreader, EN, and I collaborate, but in the end it was too onerous for me. I have the Air now, and I am now much happier.

Apple's idea that you should not have to concern yourself with files is mostly a good idea, but the entire point to pdfs is to share them across multiple apps/software, so why make it so hard?

Just my opinion.

[JMichael]

I had the same problem, and I tried, tried, tried to make Goodreader, EN, and I collaborate, but in the end it was too onerous for me. I have the Air now, and I am now much happier.

I had the same experience/issues with the iPad. I switched to the MacBook Air over a year ago. Ever since I have had the portability of the iPad and the capability of a full laptop. Best computer I ever owned.

Here's a great video that compares the two:
Apple MacBook Air 11 inch vs iPad 2 Comparison Showdown

[jbenson2]

Thanks for the interesting in-depth comparison video. I had no idea that the iPad2 with external keyboard was about the same price as the MacBook Air.

He will need to update the video with the release of the iPad3 regarding his comments on Resolution, quality of screen, viewing experience.

[GrumpyMonkey]

Thanks for the interesting in-depth comparison video. I had no idea that the iPad2 with external keyboard was about the same price as the MacBook Air.

He will need to update the video with the release of the iPad3 regarding his comments on Resolution, quality of screen, viewing experience.

i haven't watched the video, but 69 + 499 is a lot less than 999. so, i wouldn't say it is about the same as the air.

as for the pdfs (and other limitations) you deal with them. sync your pdfs with your dropbox folder (iannotate and goodreader do this well) then the files are easily available on any platform. no big deal. there are lots of minor appleblocks thrown up by the ipad's ios, but for a lot of people, the tradeoffs are worth it. even the ipad's biggest fans, though, rarely come out in favor of either ipad or macbook air. usually, people recognize the occasional need for a laptop. the thing is, i use the laptop so little that this will probably be the last one i need to buy

[JMichael]

iPad with 64 GB (same as MBA) is $699.
iPad + KB = $699 + $69 = $768
MBA-11 with 64 GB & a great KB = $999
DIFF = $231

[jbenson2]

I'm not an Apple computer user, so I was just stating what was mentioned on the video.

850 pounds for MacBook Air
700 pounds for iPad2 (without the keyboard)

He said adding the iPad2 keyboard, the final difference was not that great.

[ibrown]

I'm trying to deal with the same issue: lots of academic PDFs, some in Evernote but most on my desktop iMac hard drive, and I want to be able to annotate them and have the same annotations appear everywhere. I've recently got an iPad and haven't yet figured out how to fit it into my workflow.

I'm trying to figure out how well PDFPen will work with this: if I've got the iPad app ($10, and I haven't bought it yet because I'm not sure it does what I want), it can sync all the PDFs through iCloud. But I'm not sure if this "unattaches" the PDFs from my hard drive files.

The PDFs are already "everywhere" for me with Sugarsync. I guess I want a way to open the PDF on the iPad from Sugarsync, and then have the annotations saved back to Sugarsync.

Too bad opening the PDF directly from Evernote doesn't seem to work for this; oh well, that's Apple's decision.

[pruppert]

I love the discussion in this thread because this is a problem I've long wanted a solution for.

As GrumpyMonkey had pointed out, right now it seems like the best way to annotate cloud-based PDFs is to use one of the iPad PDF apps (e.g., PDF Expert, iAnnotate, GoodReader) in conjunction with a cloud service like Dropbox or SugarSync. I use and love PDF Expert for its range of functions and pleasant user interface. To address ibrown's question, PDF Expert does let you open a PDF from SugarSync, make edits, and then sync those edits back to SugarSync. In fact, I'm pretty sure all three apps I mention above can accomplish this workflow.

I just find it a shame that there is no way to do this directly with PDFs that are stored in Evernote. I really like EN and would love to be able to use it as my only cloud database. However, the lack of this function forces us to use these other cloud providers.

It seems that there would be 2 possible solutions to this problem:

The first solution would be if Evernote built in highlighting and other annotation features into there iOS apps. I wonder if this has ever even been considered or mentioned by the EN staff. Anybody know?

The second solution would be that 3rd party iPad apps, like PDF Expert, could tie into the Evernote API to allow for annotating the PDFs that are attached to notes. As already mentioned, many of the 3rd party annotation apps already tie into services like Dropbox and SugarSync, so I am sure they would do this with Evernote too if they could, given how popular the service is. I can only assume that the fact that none of these apps has Evernote integration must mean that there is currently no way to implement this using Evernote's API. Does anyone know for certain?

Either way, it would be nice to see Evernote get the ball rolling towards a solution. It seems like tons of academics and other people would gladly pay for a service that allows for an integrated cloud storage/annotation solution. Such a service could be a viable company in and of itself and would sure seem to bring in a lot more paying customers than something like "Evernote Food" or whatever its called. Plus the fact that this service would probably result in people syncing a lot of PDFs to Evernote, they would probably end up selling a lot more premium memberships since many people would likely need to increase their monthly upload allowance.

[Boatguy]

I would also like to see much richer annotation and editing with iOS. Telling us to use Good Reader or a similar product and SugarSync or DropBox is basically telling us to quit using EN. That seems kind of silly for an EN forum; pragmatic, but not good for EN in the long run. I want one cloud based document manager, not several.

It's obviously possible to do rich annotation since it's done in other apps. It may require more proprietary code and less freebie's from Apple's dev kit, but it's possible. If nothing else, EN could license Good Reader's editor and incorporate it into the EN iOS app.

Has EN ever considered a "new feature" voting facility like they use at SmugMug? It raises all these discussions to a much more objective level.

[JMichael]

I would also like to see much richer annotation and editing with iOS. Telling us to use Good Reader or a similar product and SugarSync or DropBox is basically telling us to quit using EN. That seems kind of silly for an EN forum; pragmatic, but not good for EN in the long run. I want one cloud based document manager, not several.

Due to limitations of the iPad IOS, it is not likely that Evernote will be able use other iPad apps to edit (annotate) its attachments directly for the foreseeable future.

It is easy to do in the desktop clients, because you can simply right-click on the PDF and open with your favorite app.
That's one of the reasons why I switched to the MacBook Air.

[GrumpyMonkey]

I would also like to see much richer annotation and editing with iOS. Telling us to use Good Reader or a similar product and SugarSync or DropBox is basically telling us to quit using EN. That seems kind of silly for an EN forum; pragmatic, but not good for EN in the long run. I want one cloud based document manager, not several.

It's obviously possible to do rich annotation since it's done in other apps. It may require more proprietary code and less freebie's from Apple's dev kit, but it's possible. If nothing else, EN could license Good Reader's editor and incorporate it into the EN iOS app.

Has EN ever considered a "new feature" voting facility like they use at SmugMug? It raises all these discussions to a much more objective level.

hi boatguy. good points.

let's agree that evernote could become an uber notetaking app. it could be pages, recorder pro, notability, dropbox, and goodreader all rolled into one. it is possible, of course.

but, how do we get there? i don't know, because i am not a developer. i am guessing there is a reason why no such program exists on any platform, even jm's beloved mba. it would be a monumental task. and, it would likely be a buggy disaster.

i think it is a strength of evernote's that it is focused on remembering everything, and not on word processing, or any number of other features. i would prefer to see it excel in everything, but that is an unlikely outcome. it's not that i don't see room for improvement (longtime forum members know i have a long wish list), but i don't want evernote to pour its limited resources into re-inventing the wheel.

so, if i recommend dropbox as a place to store unfinished stuff, and evernote as one for completed stuff, it is because i want to take advantage of their respective strengths. it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with evernote.

[pruppert]

Update on this. Phil Libn said in the most recent Evernote podcast that basic PDF annotation (e.g., highlighting, drawing) will be coming to the Skitch iOS app. however, he did not specify if it would allow 2-way syncing of annotated PDFs between Skitch and the Evernote cloud.

[Lotarm1949]

Stumbled across this topic in my search for a related problem.

I'm a new (<3 mths) iPad/Evernote user.

I currently annotate all my (professional reading) pdf's in Goodreader, and send the annotated pdf back to Evernote -- but THAT can only be done by way of attaching the annotated pdf (btw, make sure to "flatten" the annotated file before sending it back!) to an email to Evernote.

How do I "detach" the attachment from the email, so that Evernote stores the attachment , the annotated pdf, as a note, rather than the email with attachment as a note?

Thanks for any feedback! Lotarm1949

[djol]

AN IDEA for how this could be FIXED:

This is a limitation I have run into too when working with pdf's with Evernote on my iPad - initially a minor annoyance, but as my Evernote workflow and usage become more complex, this limitation has become more of a problem for me.

Because Evernote on the desktop (I use a Mac) allows in-place editing and saving, my use of Evernote has evolved into (sometimes) being a replacement filesystem (ie. pdf, doc, xls, ppt files held within notes and edited in place). Because the iPad has forgone a traditional user-accessible filesystem, being able to use Evernote as a way to move, synchronise, organise and _edit_ files would be ideal. Due to iOS' sand-boxing files can only be moved between apps by duplicating them - so an editted pdf can only be saved back to Evernote as a new attachment to a new note. This is obviously pretty messy for many of us.

I am not a professional programmer, but here's an idea for how this limitation could be worked around for Evernote on the iPad:

1. When the user selects an attachment to open in an external app, presumably (but not neccessarily) for editing, Evernote on iOS adds a unique identifiying code to the file's metadata (generated as a hash from the file?). Initially this could be implemented only for pdf files, which have well documented metadata features, and later could be implemented for other file types as well.

2. When the user has finished editing the file in the external app, it is then sent back to Evernote using the familiar 'Open In...' process. Evernote then detects the unique identifier in the file metadata, matches this to the original attachment within a note, and asks the user whether they wish to now replace the original file with this newly edited one. If instead they answer 'No' then a new note is created with the new attachment, the same way in which things currently work. (this process could be further refined by comparing file creation stamps between the original and newly edited file.)

The advantage of this work around is that it's pretty safe (ie. the user must agree to overwriting the file), asynchronous (it doesn't rely on Evernote being open or running in the background to watch the file while it's being edited, as occurs on the desktop) and it fails gracefully: if the external editing app inadvertently changes the meta-data, the file is simply not recognised as an edited file by Evernote and the original behaviour occurs, saving the file into a new note.

I recognise it would take a little bit of work to implement this, but this would certainly take a lot of our Evernote workflows to a whole new level on iOS devices.

Thought?

[GrumpyMonkey]

Stumbled across this topic in my search for a related problem.

I'm a new (<3 mths) iPad/Evernote user.

I currently annotate all my (professional reading) pdf's in Goodreader, and send the annotated pdf back to Evernote -- but THAT can only be done by way of attaching the annotated pdf (btw, make sure to "flatten" the annotated file before sending it back!) to an email to Evernote.

How do I "detach" the attachment from the email, so that Evernote stores the attachment , the annotated pdf, as a note, rather than the email with attachment as a note?

Thanks for any feedback! Lotarm1949

hi. welcome to the forums! notes are containers. they hold text or attachments. an email will become text, and the attachment will enter the note container, just like it would if you dragged it in on your desktop. on the ipad, though, rather than email, i prefer "open in".

[Roel]

I think the idea of djol (17 May 2012) is quite useful.
And even in a more simplified implementation may prove already quite valuable.

In order to edit an attachment (e.g. PDF) in another application. You could perform these steps (still imaginable, because not supported by Evernote)

• Open the attachment of a note in an editing app (e.g. GoodReader) by using the ‘Open In’ option from Evernote (this works)
• Edit the document in that editing app (works as well)
• Move it back to Evernote by using ‘Open In’ in the editing app and selecting ‘Evernote’ (this does not work)

The latter step does not work as expected, because Evernote will create a new note with that attachment instead of updating the existing attachment with a new version.

How can Evernote know which attachment to update?

One might be to use some kind of unique identifier in the document itself (as djol suggested).
But It may also use the last used attachment with the same name.
Or even let the user select the note and attachment manually (some kind of intelligent shortcut may be required here in order not to make it too cumbersome)

Note that other IPad apps use this scenario as well (and successfully). One example I know of is Colligo Briefcase.

[Cranstone]

Here's what i'm doing and it works great on a Mac

• Copy the PDF into Evernote
• Open it with Preview
• Edit it - add highlights
• Save the document and all your changes are reflected inside Evernote.

Cheers,

Peter