34 replies to this topic

[May]

I see a lot of people want to rely on Evernote for everything and try to use it for more stuff than it is supposed to be used for, e.g. Gtd task management; outlining; budget tracking, and who knows what else and etc. etc.

Task management is a close call though, it still could be done reasonably well with just evernote but it's still much more convenient to do it in a dedicated app like Omnifocus. I mean I could also track my budget in just evernote as notes but it's a lot more convenient to do so in a Numbers spreadsheet in which I could use formulas and what not... Basically the dedicated specialized tool would always be better for many reasons.


While I do use Evernote as an essential tool to capture and process and organize ALL information in my life, I don't see any real advantage in relying solely on Evernote at all for multiple reasons...

The way I use it is - I capture everything with Evernote into an inbox notebook, i.e. all raw and unprocessed information input goes into Evernote inbox.

But then during processing some stuff would end up on my gtd action and project lists in Omnifocus, calendar, checklists and etc. or in a Numbers spreadsheet or in a Mind map or an outline and so onand etc. ... Evernote doesn't replace any of those apps... Makes sense, right?

Is it possible to not use separate apps and rely only on Evernite for everything - Sure. But there is no advantage in doing so.

I still integrate all of those separate apps with Evernote, i.e. I don't have to search for stuff in different places. I still organize everything in Evernote. I don't have to keep everything stored in Evernote exactly to do so. I just have to index everything in Evernote and have it tell me where the actual location of the stuff is (in case it's not in evernote) and also provide a clickable link or a file whenever possible.

This way I can see an overview of everything I have about a specific topic or a project in a single place without having to look in multiple different places and without even thinking about where to look for anything.

See... it's still organized in one single place and accessible on both mobile and desktop because I use apps which are cross platform and also all stuff which is not kept in Evernote is still backed up in the cloud anyway.

I mean... here is even an article about how to organize physical real world stuff in Evernote

How to Unclutter with Evernote and Rubbermaid in 4 Steps

http://blog.evernote...aid-in-4-steps/

It's possible to organize anything in Evernote without even actually storing it there so the possibilities are endless...

I see that Evernote team also favors this approach somewhat, i.e. they develop separate apps and integrate them with Evernote instead of trying to add everything directly to Evernote, e.g. Hello, food, peak, skitch... So everyone can pick and use whatever combination of apps he needs... But it's also possible to integrate anything with Evernote besides those apps already anyway.

But I still see it all the time that people want to rely on evernote for everything and also suggest more features are added to it to make it more convenient to do stuff which it wasn't even supposed to do in the first place...



My thoughts are that a lot of people probably just don't integrate all information from other apps/sources consintently in Evernote, i.e. they don't have a consistent approach to do so and then they end up with stuff being stored in multiple places and then they don't know where to search and have to search in multiple places. Maybe also relying on apps which aren't cross platform but still wanting to use them on different platforms. Also additional problem could be not using any cloud backup solution other than Evernote. And so on.

So stuff just falls through the cracks.
But it doesn't have to, i.e. it's really up to you whether you optimise your workflow and data management or not... I mean you have to be proactive about it.

Just wanted to share my perspective about this, might be just common sense to a lot of people but anyway

What are your thoughts?

[Owyn]

Yeah.

I use Evernote extensively for data collection, research/project data aggregation, and as a long term searchable database.

There are some things it does not do well. No big. In most cases I can find something that does the required task well and can interface with Evernote to some extent. Might just be an embedded attachment in a note. Might be something very tightly integrated such as Evernote and Skitch.

I have no desire to see the basic Evernote platform get twisted to natively support various niche requirements. Niche requirements are in most cases best handled by niche applications that, by strong personal preference, can use Evernote as a repository.

[GrumpyMonkey]

i think the search for the holy uber notetaking app has a long and distinguished history full of dead-ends and huge successes. for many people, onenote is apparently it. anyhow, more power to them.

i don't know what evernote ought to be, but i do have a good feeling for what it is now, and i hope that they continue to flesh out their core competency: notetaking and record keeping (making memories and storing them). from formatting to searches to the ui, i think there is a lot of room for improvement.

evernote is great right now, and i look forward to it getting better. some of the features that occasionally get requested are useful, but ultimately seem like a waste of the limited time and resources that evernote has. people will never stop yearning for that uber app. hopefully, evernote stays focused and avoids those detours. in the end, though, even if i don't think a feature or use-case is the best idea, evernote needs to keep appealing to users in order to succeed in a business sense. that might not always be the direction we want it to go

[JMichael]

The challenge for Evernote, I think, is balance.

Just how far do they go with related features.

For example:

• Note taking vs Word Processing
  
  • While we don't need MS Word, we do need a set of basic formatting features
• Basic Tables vs SpreadSheets
  
  • While we don't need MS Excel, or even cell formulas, we do need a set of basic table formatting/editing features
• Image Capture vs Photoshop
  
  • While we don't need Adobe Photoshop, we do need a small set of basic image formatting features (resize, rotation, etc)
• etc

For all of these:

• Some would say what we have now is enough
• Others say we need a few more, but how many is a "few", and what are they?

Another "Balance" act is with Platform

• Should all Platforms (Clients) have the same feature set?
  OR
• Should the feature set be dependent on the Platform Group?
  
• Desktop
• Mobile
• Tablet?

All of these are tough questions and design challenges.

[anjoschu]

I think that it's a good sign when people start using your software for things you didn't even think of.

But I understand and agree with May's perspective that Evernote still must not become bloatware.

I think that, right now, Evernote strikes a very good balance between functionality and flexibility. The devs have done an immensely great job at selecting precisely those features which offer the most flexibility, but don't overburden the interface.

• The tag and notebook structure is a great example -- users get pretty far in implementing almost any method of structuring that they want. Even stuff beyond the original intend of record keeping (e.g. task management).
• Sharing notes is another example -- it's not intended nor the best tool for collaboration, but it makes it possible if you really want to use it that way.
• Supporting attachments is another great example -- you can attach that budget planning spreadsheet that May wrote about, find it everywhere, and edit it and update it easily.
• Links make it possible to integrate information which resides elsewhere, and cannot or should not be imported into Evernote (like dropbox files, gmail messages).

I wouldn't go so far as to scold people which are using Evernote for things "it's not supposed to do" -- because Evernote has obviously been designed for being flexible and enabling users to do things have not been foreseen by the developers.

But I agree that it shouldn't become a full-blown word processor, or task management app, because then it would probably not be so good at it's core task any more, which is storing and retrieving information. However, when a new feature offers better integration with dedicated apps in those fields, it should probably be considered. For example, I personally am not in favour of adding reminder functionality, but I would re-consider if Evernote offered CalDAV integration, because it would offer integration with a lot of other solutions.

[gazumped]

Seems to me there's a certain mind set amongst those with lower levels of tech experience that software should provide a comprehensive hand-holding experience - possibly encouraged by some of the office bloatware that's commonly available which can be engineered to run through specific tasks like "add customer details" with bespoke forms. Unlike most of the freethinking spirits posting around the forum, many users aren't used to thinking creatively about what they're doing or how they're doing it and just want a predigested solution.

That's an expectation adjustment and education issue that Evernote maybe needs to evangelise on. I thoroughly agree with @anjoschu currently - "Evernote strikes a very good balance between functionality and flexibility" and I hope it it is the EN intention to continue with their distributed development of separate-but-compatible solutions like Hello and Food and maybe follow up with themes like Do and Portrait for those wanting GTD and photo-handling bells and whistles. And there's always the Trunk market for more apps.

I've so far avoided even testing Hello and Food because I don't have the need or the time at the moment. That's not to say that others won't have a current need, or that I won't suddenly acquire it in a month or two.. but Evernote is working just fine for me as it is thankyou. I would hate to have to sacrifice screen real estate and processing speed for unnecessary enhancements that I don't need.

[May]

Great points, looks like we all agree in general...

The way I look at it is - evernote is meant for storage and retrival of information similar to Google so that you could find all your personal data in a single place but not for creation and serious editing of information... so that's pretty much where the line is drawn in general, e.g. you can index and organize spreadsheets, mind maps, outlines and etc. but you can't create them with just evernote.

You know... Now that I think about it... I don't use Evernote to create notes on mobile and tablet devices AT ALL and I use evernote 99% of the time on iPad.
I always use other apps to create or even capture information and then I just send it to evernote and store it there directly or just index it there and actully store it somewhere else (in iOS apps and dropbox and/or iCloud). Even for simple text notes I use a separate app on iPad - fastever xl, it's still faster and more convenient to use than built in evernote note editor. It doesn't get in the way of my workflow.
The only reason I need built in evernote note editor is to make some slight edits to already stored notes which is also very rare.
I use built in note editor to create simple note on the desktop though because desktop experience is different to tablet and mobile and it's getting outdated at this point imho but there is no need for a separate app in this case. it's just not efficient to take notes with laptop or desktop in the first place because your life doesn't happen at the desk anyway though so any advantage of a desktop client is outweighed by the disadvantage that you can't use it at all while your away from the desk...

I think in general though tablet experience is much closer to the future of computing and using multiple dedicated separate apps is where it's at basically.

I do quite a lot of advanced content creation on iPad, e.g. Numbers app with its spreadsheets is even more advanced and also easier to use than Microsoft Excel imho; iThoughtsHD is the best mind mapping experience and nothing on a desktop is as good; note taking with Notability beats or is at least on the same level of quality as even OneNote on a laptop; and stuff like GarageBand and Avid Studio makes it very convenient to create and edit music and video even though it's not as advanced as desktop alternatives - it's still more convenient to use for a lot of tasks; Skitch app is great for annotating images and also fills its niche nicely.

I use all of this stuff and more on iPad and still organize everything in evernote (also on iPad). In a way this approach beats any single desktop note taking app already. It beats any single information management app. But it's not like evernote on the iPad does this, it's my workflow that does this...

There is no need to add any more content creation and editing features to tablet/mobile clients of Evernote.

People just need to start taking advantage of multiple dedicated apps but still keep it backed up in the cloud and still organize all their data in a single place like Evernote.

Yeah I think there is definitely some shift happening in the way we are using software...

using a single app for everything is more of an old way to get things done. I can see how it could look more convenient to rely on a single app to get as much done as possible, i.e. to get good at using a single tool and automatically get good at everything by doing so and also that you have to learn how to use and maintain as few apps as possible and so on. Well it doesn't work that way anymore, it's an outdated approach. With the modern mobile/tablet workflow this approach is not optimal for multiple reasons.

It's not about the tool anymore, it's not about getting good at using any tool. It's not about learning and maintaing any single tool. Tools take couple of minutes to learn and no effort to maintain and everything is backed up to the cloud automatically while the device is not in use. It's all about your personal methodology now, it's all about relying on your own workflow and systematic approach and etc. and the tools are just there for you to let you do whatever you need. They're not there for you to guide you by the hand and force any structure or workflow or anything. They're not there for you to adapt to them, they're there for you to organically integrate them in your personal workflow and take advantage of.

Definitely Gazumped made a great point,

Seems to me there's a certain mind set amongst those with lower levels of tech experience that software should provide a comprehensive hand-holding experience - possibly encouraged by some of the office bloatware that's commonly available which can be engineered to run through specific tasks like "add customer details" with bespoke forms.

...

That's an expectation adjustment and education issue that Evernote maybe needs to evangelise on.

Technology is getting more out of the way of our own workflow, it's not about how to use any single tool or the device itself to get things done at this point, it's more about YOUR own personal workflow. Which is also how it should be.

[BurgersNFries]

• Sharing notes is another example -- it's not intended nor the best tool for collaboration, but it makes it possible if you really want to use it that way.

(snip)

I wouldn't go so far as to scold people which are using Evernote for things "it's not supposed to do" -- because Evernote has obviously been designed for being flexible and enabling users to do things have not been foreseen by the developers.

I agree. But it's annoying when people are using it for other purposes & then feel the need to insult the developers because EN doesn't fully work well for the purpose. Sharing is again, another example of this. Yes, EN has limited sharing. But it was (is?) first & foremost a personal application & they have specifically stated they are not focusing on the business/enterprise environment. So while I would not scold someone for using EN "off label", those that do should understand the limitations of that. (And I'm not saying you are saying that...just making a statement.)

Seems to me there's a certain mind set amongst those with lower levels of tech experience that software should provide a comprehensive hand-holding experience - possibly encouraged by some of the office bloatware that's commonly available which can be engineered to run through specific tasks like "add customer details" with bespoke forms. Unlike most of the freethinking spirits posting around the forum, many users aren't used to thinking creatively about what they're doing or how they're doing it and just want a predigested solution.

That's an expectation adjustment and education issue that Evernote maybe needs to evangelise on. I thoroughly agree with @anjoschu currently - "Evernote strikes a very good balance between functionality and flexibility" and I hope it it is the EN intention to continue with their distributed development of separate-but-compatible solutions like Hello and Food and maybe follow up with themes like Do and Portrait for those wanting GTD and photo-handling bells and whistles. And there's always the Trunk market for more apps.

I've so far avoided even testing Hello and Food because I don't have the need or the time at the moment. That's not to say that others won't have a current need, or that I won't suddenly acquire it in a month or two.. but Evernote is working just fine for me as it is thankyou. I would hate to have to sacrifice screen real estate and processing speed for unnecessary enhancements that I don't need.

Agreed. I also think those with higher levels of tech experience have already lived the experience of apps that do one thing very well vs apps that do everything mildly well. I'm definitely in the camp of using the best tool for the job. Which means I use one app for balancing our books, another one for creating web pages, another one for to do/task list management, another for editing videos, etc. I think it's going to be crucial for Evernote to remain lean & rely upon separate-but-compatible solutions since the biggest limiting factor will probably always be mobile devices.

[BurgersNFries]

The way I look at it is - evernote is meant for storage and retrival of information similar to Google so that you could find all your personal data in a single place but not for creation and serious editing of information... so that's pretty much where the line is drawn in general, e.g. you can index and organize spreadsheets, mind maps, outlines and etc. but you can't create them with just evernote.

Yup.

People just need to start taking advantage of multiple dedicated apps but still keep it backed up in the cloud and still organize all their data in a single place like Evernote.

Yup.

It's not about the tool anymore, it's not about getting good at using any tool.

And yup.

using a single app for everything is more of an old way to get things done.

I think those of us who have been around the technology block for quite a while have realized it will be a very long time before there is one app that does everything & does it well. At least for now & the foreseeable future, apps can do one thing & do it well or do everything moderately well.

Also, IMO, the folks who come to Evernote complaining that Onenote does this that & the other & Evernote does not & what's wrong with the EN devs that they didn't include this & blah, blah, blah...well, as I've stated numerous times on the board, there's a reason Onenote doesn't live on all the platforms Evernote does. (Although it's kind of sort of trying to catch up...) So pick your poison. If you need all the stars, colored tabs, drawing tools & various other bells & whistles that ON provides, then stick with it. I occasionally use ON for brainstorming. (I don't really see ON & EN as competitors.) But don't switch to Evernote & then complain b/c it doesn't have those features. (And I'm not saying you are doing that...just making a statement.)

[JMichael]

One area where I believe that Evernote needs to make some major improvements to its core functionality is the Search engine.

Search is the 2nd half of the Evernote primary mission to help us store and retrieve all of our memories.

The most significant improvement needed is in the ease of use of Searches. IMO, the current Search syntax is to difficult to use and remember for many, if not most, users. So they end up using EN Search like a simple Google Search -- full text only.

EN Search is really a database search, which includes a limited version of full-text search (it's a word search, not a character search).

[GrumpyMonkey]

evernote's search is really basic compared to some of the grep functionality in things lile bbedit, and i am a little disappointed by that. it would be great to see improvements here.

the search grammar is relatively easy to use and remember for me. i think evernote ought to have one note in every new account with a copy of their advanced search grammar page.

and, a nice thin would be blog posts or some other venue where they introduce ways to organize wih the search capabilities in mind. i've seen some great ideas on this forum that have helped me refine my system. but, let's face it, the forums have a small population and are a pain to search (ironic).

[JMichael]

the search grammar is relatively easy to use and remember for me.

Do you use any of the more advanced search syntax for dates, attributes, file type, file extension, etc?

[ianspencer]

I agree with all of the above. I have used OneNote for years and it is too much and when you get it on a mobile device with small screen it is useless. All I want is a task reminder and I would put most things in it, I am still juggling with Outlook and Evernote. I don't mind if the Task reminder is something I pay someone for it just needs to be available on My PC and Android and tie in someway. Also I don't always have good internet access so Evernote on the Android works well with the sync when I get back on-line.

[GrumpyMonkey]

the search grammar is relatively easy to use and remember for me.

Do you use any of the more advanced search syntax for dates, attributes, file type, file extension, etc?

i think my previous post gives the answer to that. if i think it is easy to use, i must be using it

clip this page (https://support.ever...earch-operators) and you have access anytime you forget something, or even if you just want to try something new. combinations of advanced search terms are easy to string together, and you can create really precise searches without much effort.

now, if evernote could give us some grep functionality, then i would be really happy (see this site for more http://www.anybrowse...edit/grep.shtml)

[JMichael]

now, if evernote could give us some grep functionality, then i would be really happy (see this site for more http://www.anybrowse...edit/grep.shtml)

Looks like Grep is very similar to Regular Expressions. If so, then it can be very useful for processing strings within a Note (like the Note body, Title, etc).
However, I don't see its use in searching across database records (notes) in Evernote.

IMO, we need basic database search expressions (more like SQL) before we need something complex like Grep.
I think Grep/Regular Expressions might be very difficult to implement, and also not easy to use.

We need full support for logical expressions and summary/group by expressions so we could do things like find all Notes with only one tag which is named (for example) "Personal".

[GrumpyMonkey]

grep scales up well, from basic to extremely complex searches. it's rather widely used and well-known.

but, i don't really care what is used, as long as the search is improved so that i can do more complex and focused searches.

finding only notes with one tag (as i mentioned in the other thread) is a relatively simple matter, even if that action is not directly supported with the current search parameters.

[May]

finding only notes with one tag (as i mentioned in the other thread) is a relatively simple matter, even if that action is not directly supported with the current search parameters.

Not really... It's not possible at all on iPad for example. I'm all for making actual search more flexible, there is a lot of room for improvement.

[peterfmartin]

finding only notes with one tag (as i mentioned in the other thread) is a relatively simple matter, even if that action is not directly supported with the current search parameters.

Sorry I don't know: How do you currently do that on Mac?

[May]

finding only notes with one tag (as i mentioned in the other thread) is a relatively simple matter, even if that action is not directly supported with the current search parameters.

Sorry I don't know: How do you currently do that on Mac?

Search for all notes with this particular tag then sort notes by tag and display notes in list view and look at tags column

[May]

Just wanted to add that even though search could be improved and made more convenient and also more flexible - what is currently available is enough for me personally, except for one thing

http://discussion.ev...earch-for-tags/